Thread: Which SawStop

Hi Vovo, Have just been through a similar process recently, I settled on a sliding table saw in the end .
Once you add up the cost of the things you are considering you can easily get close to or beyond the cost of a quality sliding table saw.
The youtube woodworkers you speak of are mostly all American if you watch euro woodworkers they mostly have sliding saws or full combination machines.
The feature I'm most looking forward to is the overhead blade guard that my new saw comes with, no more dust in the face from the table saw.

Cheers barramonday, which one did you get?

I have the PCS 36" T-glide and I couldn't be happier with it. The main reasons I went with it were power, quality, and mobility. My "workshop" is the typical double car garage which pretty much rules out sliding tables and panel saws. My PCS has a router wing and the overhead guard and I can easily move it around with the heavy duty mobility kit from the ICS. There are other mobility bases, and I've tried a couple, but none offer the ease of movement and stability as the SS HD base. When the saw is lowered, it's as stable as it is without the mobility base. On my previous saw, I tried two generic mobile bases (the 2 swivel wheel model and the one with a wheel at each corner w/brakes). I wasn't happy with either of them. My regret was not buying the SS PCS as my 1st table saw. I thought the 2hp Laguna Fusion would be enough for my needs but I soon learnt I need the extra hp to deal with our tough Aussie HW. And it's noticeably quieter too. That was a pleasant surprise.



Cheers,
Mike

Sliding table panel saw, you’ll soon realise why every professional cabinetmaking shop in the world has one.

Originally Posted by KahoyKutter

I have the PCS 36" T-glide and I couldn't be happier with it.

It is what I'm leaning towards.

One of the big combo panel saws would be awesome but I don't have the space

vovo, I was in your position a few years ago. My sites were set on a Sawstop with 36" fence - I work with solid wood, rather than sheet goods, and rarely need longer that 30".

Going over the features, plus having two other Hammer machines (bandsaw and jointer/thicknesser), it became a race with the Hammer K3, which is a slider. The sliders available for this saw come in different lengths. In the end I purchased one up from the smallest, a slider wagon that is 1300mm/51". It really was no contest at the end. Having said this, the Hammer is more expensive than the SS, and the model I purchased may be a lot more than you are planning to spend.

The slider is not simply for crosscutting - there is an accessory for the SS which is a crosscut slider, and this is not a true slider wagon. The Hammer slider wagon is capable of ripping as well, and the use of a slider makes these very safe saws. There are just so many features and possibilities that I just urge you to do some research on these saws. In particular, do a search for Fritz & Franz jig, which is used on a slider. That alone will open your eyes.


The footprint of this saw is smaller than the SS equivalent, but you need space for the slider.


Link: Guide to the Hammer K3 and K4 Table and Panel Saws | Machine Atlas

Review from Pop Wood: http://shop.feldershop.com/out/pictu...3%20Review.pdf

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by vovo

It is what I'm leaning towards.

One of the big combo panel saws would be awesome but I don't have the space

Yep, that's probably the 2nd main reason (the 1st probably being price) why most hobbyists stick to a TS. It's such a compact package especially with a router wing. And if you plan to move your saw a lot, which I do, then the SS with HD mobile base is unbeatable IMO. Positioning the PCS is a breeze. Often I'll need to re-position the saw half a meter in a particular direction to clear an obstacle and I can do that from the front of the saw without leaving my operating position. There's no having to go around the saw to release individual brakes, or fetching a special handle. Just a few pumps, pull or push to where you want it and then press the pedal to lower the saw. Nothing could be easier. Also, I read that panel saws, especially the big pro units, need to be re-calibrated every time you move them. Otherwise the slider may no longer track true. This probably doesn't apply to the smaller panel saws like Derek's, which looks to be engineered to be moved regularly, but even that example won't beat the SS for mobility.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

vovo, I was in your position a few years ago. My sites were set on a Sawstop with 36" fence - I work with solid wood, rather than sheet goods, and rarely need longer that 30".

I'm similar, don't plan on cutting sheets much. Perhaps you could let me know ballpark what the K3 Winner will set me back. It certainly is a handy looking saw and definitely worth considering.

Thanks

Keep in mind that I purchased mine 3 years ago. The base price then was $6500 for the Basic 31" x 31" (31" long slider and 31" rip fence rail). Then you add on for a longer slider, Professional rip fence, dado accessory, mobility kit, etc. When you order a Hammer (from Felder), they build it for you as you request it. You don't buy one off a showroom floor. Mine came in at $8500 from memory. It was the roughly the same price as a SS 31" with sliding attachment. The SS is 3 hp and 10" blade. The K3 is 4 hp and 12" blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Here in the US, the governing factor is electricity. Because we are a 120 volt country putting 240 volts into the garage sometimes is expensive. I assume that in OZ, the governing factor is amperage as dictated by code and wire size. The advice here is to get the largest HP in a 10 inch model. (254 MM) The most that you'll gain in depth of cut by going to a 12 inch model is only 25 MM. Usually (here in the US) the machines with 12 inch capacity use a one inch or so (Maybe metric) arbor. This necessitates using dadoes that are not commonly stocked. This can mean special order and of course special additional charges.

I don't know the common sizes of sheet goods sold there. I would definitely get a table saw that can cut a sheet good in half. If the sheet goods are 96 or 97 inches get the 51 inch rip fence model. I can almost guarantee that if you get the 31 inch model within 3 months you'll be wishing that you got the 51 inch model. DAMHIKT

Whatever you decide on, I'm sure you will be happy.
BTW - I built the cabinets in my shop on a Jet Contractor model (Motor hanging out the back) with an Incra fence (31 inches). Cutting up ¾ sheets of Melamine by my self was not difficult once I figured out how to push them through the saw. I have since purchased a 51 inch Delta UniSaw.

A significant factor not debated above is the safety factor.

May I suggest that you have a look at the safety record of countries where table saws are dominant - USA, UK and Australia - and then compare them to the safety record of countries where sliding top saws rule - continental Europe - Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, etc.

I have access to an SCM and a Minimax sliders and have used an Altendorf ($$$$$'s - brilliant) but have an old saw bench that is rarely used.

In my view the advantages of a sliding top are:

1. Safety - less than half the accidents of a saw bench,
2. Accuracy and cut quality - Commonly do not need to joint cuts, and
3. Flexibility - can do so much more, without multiple jigs.

The disadvantage of sliders are:

1. Take up more workshop floor space,
2. Price - no cheap models - prices start in the same bracket as Sawstop.

In my view the sawstop technology is just a bandaid that fails to address the fundamental design flaws in the saw bench concept. The sawstop technology is triggered by as follows - it continuously sends an electrical pulse through the sawblade, if the pulse is interrupted by the blade touching a conductor such as flesh then it is triggered an stops the blade within about a third of a turn. But it can also be triggered by another conductor such as wet timber, metal contamination (nail?), or even some timbers (eg celery top pine). That trigggering has expensive outcomes.

Compare that to alternative technology coming out of Europe where the entire sawblade simply retracts below the table, can be reset immediately and work continues. I know, Altendorf is extremely expensive, but it will spread very quickly.
Altendorf Formatkreissagen - Der Altendorf Sicherheitsassistent | The Altendorf Safety Assistant | Facebook

There are some lower priced small sliders available:

panel saw

Originally Posted by RossM

There are some lower priced small sliders available:

panel saw

It is relevant to add that there are two types of "short-stroke" sliders. A few of the sliders in that link fall into one group, and a few into the other.

The first is styled on a traditional European slider wagon, however the wagon is shorter, generally 31” - 51” in length. The wagon travels close to the blade (about 1” away). This slider more easily facilitates being used as a cabinet saw than the sliders with long wagons as the wagon does not interfere much with access. The cabinet saw method is facilitated by locking down the wagon and running work pieces against the rip fence. The wagon remains long enough to use a F&F jig to rip on the wagon.

This is the Jack-of-all-Trades slider style I now have (which I posted earlier) ...



... and why I have spent time upgrading the rip fence with the JessEm Clear Cut Saw Guides, as well as designing and building the Reverse F&F.

Before the K3 came along, my table saw was a contractor type from Carbatec with a crosscut sliding table. I used this for 20 years ...



The slider wagon here also makes it a short-stroke, however this wagon is only designed for crosscutting. The wagon is a good 12” from the blade, and ripping is not really possible. Fantastic table saw, and still a valid way to go today.

When I was looking to upgrade my table saw, my first thought was a SawStop with 36” rip fence rails (since I do not need to cut sheets), along with the accessory slider wagon. This would have replicated the second example, my old table saw. The SS would have simply produced a safer and better quality, but similar featured saw. When I first looked at the Hammer K3 short-stroke, I was planning in the 31” model since I did not understand that the slider wagon was for ripping as well. When this became clear, I went as long as I could, while recognising that the longest versions were really designed for sheet goods. The K3 wagon on mine is referred to in the US as 48” but really is 51” in length.

I very much doubt that many would choose a full SawStop set up over the K3 set up I have once they used both for a while. With conditions: this will not give the sheet good user enough capacity, but it gives the solid wood user a much wider range of choices.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

It is relevant to add that there are two types of "short-stroke" sliders. A few of the sliders in that link fall into one group, and a few into the other.

The first is styled on a traditional European slider wagon, however the wagon is shorter, generally 31” - 51” in length. The wagon travels close to the blade (about 1” away). This slider more easily facilitates being used as a cabinet saw than the sliders with long wagons as the wagon does not interfere much with access. The cabinet saw method is facilitated by locking down the wagon and running work pieces against the rip fence. The wagon remains long enough to use a F&F jig to rip on the wagon.

This is the Jack-of-all-Trades slider style I now have (which I posted earlier) ...



... and why I have spent time upgrading the rip fence with the JessEm Clear Cut Saw Guides, as well as designing and building the Reverse F&F.

Before the K3 came along, my table saw was a contractor type from Carbatec with a crosscut sliding table. I used this for 20 years ...



The slider wagon here also makes it a short-stroke, however this wagon is only designed for crosscutting. The wagon is a good 12” from the blade, and ripping is not really possible. Fantastic table saw, and still a valid way to go today.

When I was looking to upgrade my table saw, my first thought was a SawStop with 36” rip fence rails (since I do not need to cut sheets), along with the accessory slider wagon. This would have replicated the second example, my old table saw. The SS would have simply produced a safer and better quality, but similar featured saw. When I first looked at the Hammer K3 short-stroke, I was planning in the 31” model since I did not understand that the slider wagon was for ripping as well. When this became clear, I went as long as I could, while recognising that the longest versions were really designed for sheet goods. The K3 wagon on mine is referred to in the US as 48” but really is 51” in length.

I very much doubt that many would choose a full SawStop set up over the K3 set up I have once they used both for a while. With conditions: this will not give the sheet good user enough capacity, but it gives the solid wood user a much wider range of choices.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have modified my cross cut fence on the Woodfast machine to be removed in 10 seconds, lock the slide, rip all the timber I want, and put the cross cut fence back on in 10 seconds and it’s perfectly square. It took only a few hours to make and it works brilliantly. On the sliding table saws my old man used to make, the cross cut fence was at the rear of the sliding table, hinged, with a hook on the outer end. Flip the hook, and flip the fence over and out of the way, hey presto, a ripping saw. I agree that big saws like Altendorfs take up room, but they are really for professional workshops. I measured the footprint of my wood fast 12” machine today, as part of the planning for the setup of the new workshop, and it uses 2 m x 2 m, then obviously you need room at each end for whatever you are cutting. I would imagine a Sawstop like the ones I saw in Carbatec store wouldn’t use very much less space, and they don’t have a sliding table.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry Derek I pressed reply with quote instead of the other option.