Thread: SAWSTOP fires off again!

Originally Posted by aldav

It's interesting to note the contrast between the accommodation havabeer (an individual owner user) and Pajo (at a communal user site) got from the same sales and service outlet (Carbatec Brisbane). ...

Could it be simply that a staff member knows haveabeer, because of repeated sales and visits?

Originally Posted by doug3030

If I have said it once, I've said it a thousand times.

It's unique safety features aside, a Sawstop is a quality tablesaw and worth what you pay for it.

However, there are many ways to have an accident on a tablesaw and Sawstop technology minimises only ONE of them and eliminates NONE of them.

Owning or using a Sawstop is not a substitute for safe work practices and habits.

I agree 100%!

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Could it be simply that a staff member knows haveabeer, because of repeated sales and visits?

no.

i live in a different state.

Originally Posted by doug3030

However, there are many ways to have an accident on a tablesaw and Sawstop technology minimises only ONE of them and eliminates NONE of them.

Owning or using a Sawstop is not a substitute for safe work practices and habits.

This is 100% true for ANY safety feature on ANYTHING. Unfortunately my observation is that most people over time stop using the correct practices, and start relying completely on the technology. Whether it be guards on machines, or "blind-spot detection" systems in cars, people do what is easy. Why bother cranking your head around to check your blind-spot, when a glowing LED will tell you? But what happens when the LED fails, or the sensor is covered with mud....?

Back on topic, I know very little about the SawStop machines, but from reading this thread it looks like their function relies on conductivity. Are they affected by glue lines in laminations? Sometimes, when pushed for time, I trim the ends of a glued panel before the "label recommended" 24 hour drying time. It means I can do a second glue-up to the panel on the same day, which saves time. But would those "fresh" glue lines affect a SawStop?

Originally Posted by doug3030

If I have said it once, I've said it a thousand times.

It's unique safety features aside, a Sawstop is a quality tablesaw and worth what you pay for it.

However, there are many ways to have an accident on a tablesaw and Sawstop technology minimises only ONE of them and eliminates NONE of them.

Owning or using a Sawstop is not a substitute for safe work practices and habits.

This is well said. I am gonna memorise this and repeat it whenever someone is obsessed with Sawstop.

Originally Posted by Albert

This is well said. I am gonna memorise this and repeat it whenever someone is obsessed with Sawstop.

Unfortunately many have succumbed to the marketing hype of the magic tool / accessory that fixes everything / anything, or replaces a myriad of other tools; and the engineered control that hopefully works 100% of the time to prevent injury.

Sadly that marketing hype and user thinking extends to over simplifying the skills and training required to use "industrial" machinery with "inherent" hazards.

The saw stop technology is beneficial, however one potential hazard that has not been mentioned with it is the on going maintenance required to ensure that the saw stop mechanism can and does deploy effectively if it is required. How many saw cabinets are routinely cleared of debris???

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

How many saw cabinets are routinely cleared of debris???

with good dust extraction.... you don't need to

but again that seems to be something BOBL brings up alot is that mens sheds and similar group places seem to lack in that area as well. But i also think its some what a design issue with companies putting 4" ports on machines as standard instead of 6" and just throwing in a cheap ass reducer if needed.

Originally Posted by havabeer69

with good dust extraction.... you don't need to

but again that seems to be something BOBL brings up alot is that mens sheds and similar group places seem to lack in that area as well. But i also think its some what a design issue with companies putting 4" ports on machines as standard instead of 6" and just throwing in a cheap ass reducer if needed.

I was thinking more along the line of thin rips, or narrow cross cut ends going down the throat of the table insert and doing a "Murphy" - ending up in places that may hinder the actuation of the saw stop saws blade dropping below the table surface. Given that it deploys with "explosive force" it is perhaps unlikey that a thin rip may restrict its effective operation but ..... Plenty of things have occurred in the past that "should not happen" or "can't happen" because part of the "safety system" has failed through poor maintenance, wear, operator error, an "unforeseen event" etc.

You make good points as well. Again it may come to a combination of events and / or poorly (just adequately?) engineering design and user (in)actions that lead to an injury. Safety must be a holistic approach, one hazard control cannot exist in isolation, it must be supported by user training, safe work methods, maintenance, ancillary equipment functioning correctly, adequately dimensioned DE, PPE, etc.

But we are still only talking about one hazard - human contact with a spinning blade ..... and why does the technology deploy "when it should not!"

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Unfortunately many have succumbed to the marketing hype of the magic tool / accessory that fixes everything / anything, or replaces a myriad of other tools; and the engineered control that hopefully works 100% of the time to prevent injury.

Sadly that marketing hype and user thinking extends to over simplifying the skills and training required to use "industrial" machinery with "inherent" hazards.

The saw stop technology is beneficial, however one potential hazard that has not been mentioned with it is the on going maintenance required to ensure that the saw stop mechanism can and does deploy effectively if it is required. How many saw cabinets are routinely cleared of debris???

Agree fully.

There is probably a very long page of fine prints in the package of the SawStop telling you to have the SawStop working properly you will need to ................. which summaries into 3 words: good working practice.

but if you have good working practice you probably dont need a SawStop!

Originally Posted by doug3030

If I have said it once, I've said it a thousand times. ...

Now, now, Doug, you have been told a million times not to exagerate.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Now, now, Doug, you have been told a million times not to exagerate.

I reckon if you go through all the woodworking pages on Facebook and count the times I have said it just there, you would find I'm not exaggerating at all.

Agree 100% with Doug on this. I've used a Sawstop Professional Cabinet Saw at least 4 days a week since they became available in Australia. Very well built and a remarkable safety aid. Emphasis on the AID. It is not a substitute for poor work practices.

The spring that fires the 'brake' block into the blade is immensely strong. The block is only 3mm or so from the blade and is curved in shape to sit snugly around part of the blade. The sheer force generated when the blade is suddenly halted makes me believe (but not know) that thin offcuts - thin enough to drop through the almost-zero clearance plate - would not affect the performance.

I'm not a crusader but I am happy we brought the Sawstop and would buy one again in a heartbeat.

Regards,

Brian

Originally Posted by homey

Agree 100% with Doug on this. I've used a Sawstop Professional Cabinet Saw at least 4 days a week since they became available in Australia. Very well built and a remarkable safety aid. Emphasis on the AID. It is not a substitute for poor work practices.

Thank you for the feed back. Have you ever experienced any activations of the safety mechanism - false or as intended? I'm not a crusader one way or the other, simply trying to understand why some are experiencing unintended activations with no apparent reason for them, yet other users don't. Like yourself also making users / potential users aware that "It is not a substitute for poor work practices" and that with any additional features there may be additional maintenance required, certainly more learning about its operation, and perhaps additional potential hazards (such a false activations etc).

"Why is it so?" as the old Prof Julius Sumner Miller used to ask. There has to be some commonality between the false activations, either the materials being sawn, the method of operation, the work environment, perhaps even the user (say an implanted medical device???) ...... the saw blades being used, .....

I have an implanted defibrilator / pacemaker so I'm very cautious about any new machinery / technology. Saw Stop's assurances to me, "that it is safe for you" have not been backed by any reliable evidence, & they are not upfront about how many false activations there really are.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

I don't claim to have the answers, only raising a potential cause. It bothered me that the cut appeared to have been completed, but at this stage we are making assumptions about the sequence of events.

When did the cartridge activation occur? Obviously not before the cut, but during the cut, immediately after, or some time after? What also may have contacted the blade etc.

Until we build a body of knowledge / evidence and investigate potential "false triggering" scenarios then we are simply guessing. I believe that SawStop analyse the cartridge data to determine how / why the cartridge activated.

From the Op's original comments the commonality appears to be silky oak.

Unfortunately "false triggering" events undermine confidence in an otherwise very beneficial protection mechanism. The cost impost and other consequences encourage a user to bypass those beneficial features in some scenarios, perhaps even most which then reduces the "protection" offered by the system.

We simply must build a body of knowledge / evidence to interpret what may be causing these events.

Unfortunately there's a lot the saw doesn't record, and never will. So the data is very limited in it's use and, in my personal opinion, pretty useless. These saws have been having unexplainable false positives since introduced... Hence the blanket statement "don't use marine ply" Will the next statement be - don't use MDF. A far too easy condition to impose to remove liability. I'd never buy one.

YMMV