Thread: SAWSTOP fires off again!

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

Unfortunately there's a lot the saw doesn't record, and never will. So the data is very limited in it's use and, in my personal opinion, pretty useless. These saws have been having unexplainable false positives since introduced... Hence the blanket statement "don't use marine ply" Will the next statement be - don't use MDF. A far too easy condition to impose to remove liability. I'd never buy one. YMMV

All electronic safety devices have false or at least "unnecessary" activations, simply because the machine cannot (at our current technology level) know every detail of what is going on. It is triggered by one or more parameters going outside an acceptable range, but it does not know _why_ that parameter has changed. Did the parameter change because a finger touched the blade and the capacitance triggered the switch, or was it something in the material that did the same thing? Anything that allows electricity to flow and thus change the capacitance of the system can cause it to trigger. And that's assuming it is working 100% correctly (how well regulated is the power supply to the device?).

The concept of "never buying one" may be moot. It is not unusual for safety devices to be mandated, especially when the producer sees a market opportunity. In Australia, Honda no longer sell quad bikes because someone saw an opportunity to make money by supplying rollover bars and persuaded the government to enforce them with legislation. Honda won't comply with this legislation (stating that in their opinion it creates more hazards than it solves) and simply stopped selling them here. Equally almost every new car has collision avoidance, blind spot monitoring and a mass of other "safety" features. It isn't possible to buy a car without these things, yet my personal experience is that the collision detection system on my wife's current vehicle tries to give me a heart attack by falsely triggering a couple of times every year. The problem is that in reality it is triggering correctly according to what is supposed to do, but unfortunately it is inappropriate because it can't see where the road goes, and simply sees a stationary car in front of us!! The road swings to the left, someone is waiting to turn right, the car "sees" a stationary vehicle directly in front of us at 100kph and "panics". But you can't even switch it off!!

Whilst my experience is that this safety feature in the car has never (in five years) been useful, but scares the cr*p out of me twice a year, I have no idea whether it has saved hundred of other peoples lives, or whether they too find it completely useless. Probably depends (as we have said in this thread) whether they are acting safely to start with!! But her new car has the same stuff, in greater quantity, and there is no way to buy a car without it...

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

I don't claim to have the answers, only raising a potential cause. It bothered me that the cut appeared to have been completed, but at this stage we are making assumptions about the sequence of events.

When did the cartridge activation occur? Obviously not before the cut, but during the cut, immediately after, or some time after? What also may have contacted the blade etc.

Until we build a body of knowledge / evidence and investigate potential "false triggering" scenarios then we are simply guessing. I believe that SawStop analyse the cartridge data to determine how / why the cartridge activated.

From the Op's original comments the commonality appears to be silky oak.

Unfortunately "false triggering" events undermine confidence in an otherwise very beneficial protection mechanism. The cost impost and other consequences encourage a user to bypass those beneficial features in some scenarios, perhaps even most which then reduces the "protection" offered by the system.

We simply must build a body of knowledge / evidence to interpret what may be causing these events.

Unfortunately there's a lot the saw doesn't record, and never will. So the data is very limited in it's use and, in my personal opinion, pretty useless. These saws have been having unexplainable false positives since introduced... Hence the blanket statement "don't use marine ply" Will the next statement be - don't use MDF.

YMMV

Originally Posted by Warb

The concept of "never buying one" may be moot. It is not unusual for safety devices to be mandated, especially when the producer sees a market opportunity.

I seem to recall that Sawstop tried to go down that route, I think it was only in the US, but they couldn't get sufficient backing for the legislation or it failed for some reason. I think the plan was for all other manufacturers to pay them royalties on the mechanism for the patent. Had it succeeded over there, it would have probably made it damn near impossible to get a saw without the safety features in Australia too.

Felder now have a system that seems to counter many of the inherent problems of the Saw Stop system:

• Does not require blade contact to activate,
• Does not utilise capitance so should eliminate most/many flase firings,
• Does not ruin the saw blade,
• Does not require any replacement cartridge,
• Saw can be used 5 seconds later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPED8OV2iy4

It is already available on their Felder and Format ranges, but not (yet) on their Hammer series. Only problem is $$$$s.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Felder now have a system that seems to counter many of the inherent problems of the Saw Stop system.

Only problem is $$$$s.

It works by using an electromagnetic field to detect the approaching finger before it contacts the blade. Sadly it is unlikely to work properly for me, because I've been vaccinated so I'm magnetic and emit 5G......

Originally Posted by Warb

Sadly it is unlikely to work properly for me, because I've been vaccinated so I'm magnetic and emit 5G......

Likewise for me so I will have to stick with my Sawstop.

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Felder now have a system that seems to counter many of the inherent problems of the Saw Stop system:

• Does not require blade contact to activate,
• Does not utilise capitance so should eliminate most/many flase firings,
• Does not ruin the saw blade,
• Does not require any replacement cartridge,
• Saw can be used 5 seconds later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPED8OV2iy4

It is already available on their Felder and Format ranges, but not (yet) on their Hammer series. Only problem is $$$$s.

dunno why but your youtube link ended up in the far right of the post




i'm stuck trying to work out what the DRO screen does on that saw?
PCS(R) Preventive Contact System | Felder Group

and the 3rd thing to remember is this bit from the website

The patent-pending Safety Innovation PCS is available as an option with the Format4 kappa 550 sliding table panel saw and supplements the existing standard protective equipment.

patent pending....being non contact maybe they'll get a patent

I considered Kappa 550 when I was upgrading my panel saw. The start price of Kappa 550 is 30,000 Euro, PCS come as standard. This was in July 2021.

For Sawstop, the potential prevention of a hand injury has to be weighed against the likelihood of a heart attack when the thing unexpectedly goes BANG....

Originally Posted by doug3030

I seem to recall that Sawstop tried to go down that route, I think it was only in the US, but they couldn't get sufficient backing for the legislation or it failed for some reason. I think the plan was for all other manufacturers to pay them royalties on the mechanism for the patent. Had it succeeded over there, it would have probably made it damn near impossible to get a saw without the safety features in Australia too.

Yes, you thought Sawstop were mainly a saw manufacturer, but it turns out their main business plan revolved around litigation. Very glad they failed at this.

Some years back, we had a young chap sustain a serious hand cut on a sliding table saw. A work cover inspector arrived to cast his "knowledgable" eye over the scene of the crime and fill out an official report. He asked for the saw to be switched on and then proceeded to lean over the spinning blade with his tie hanging dangerously close to the blade and getting ever closer as he stooped further forward looking for who knows what. I was standing directly behind him and kicked the emergency stop button. The saw came to a stop just as his tie made contact with the blade. It would have pulled him face first into the blade. Saws are dangerous. As are inspectors that haven't got a bloody clue.

Originally Posted by havabeer69

dunno why but your youtube link ended up in the far right of the post. ...

Hangover from my academic days - I habitually kick references off to the right to differentiate them from the text.

Nothing to do with the referee being Felder......

... patent pending....being non contact maybe they'll get a patent. ...

My understanding from a report some five years ago, is that a European consortium of saw makers was doing or financing the research and that all would eventually use any intellectual property that was created. They viewed the safety issue as an industry wide issue, and not a proprietary one. If my memory is reliable, then several other makers should also have products or upgrades in the pipeline.

Brilliant seeing a "better designed mousetrap" which overcomes many of the issues with the SawStop design.

The whole concept of implementing engineering features to help prevent / minimize table saw injuries is a wonderful ideal to pursue - however - the technology must be affordable, reliable, & "idiot proof." If it can't meet those criteria then it is unlikely to be adopted in the target market, or in the market where it will be most beneficial - DIY & budget table saw packages.

Its all very well offering a "safety feature" on a $30k+ which will be operated by not just any Joe Blogs, but a trained and highly skilled employee or owner operator. It then becomes a "belt & braces" feature, nice to have for that remote risk that the operator will have a really dumb moment, or a medical episode. On a $5k DIY package, it will be very beneficial as that is market niche populated by cashed up retirees or the more serious DIY'er.

There must be hundred's of thousands (millions???) of table saws available to DIY users in the USA alone, they will never be retrofitted with these devices, and will be in circulation for many decades to come. I can't see a buy back / generous trade-in / trade-up scheme to encourage users to scrap "non-compliant" saws and purchase new "compliant" saws being effective - even if legislation is introduced to mandate upgrades.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Brilliant seeing a "better designed mousetrap" which overcomes many of the issues with the SawStop design. ...

Its all very well offering a "safety feature" on a $30k+ which will be operated by not just any Joe Blogs, but a trained and highly skilled employee or owner operator. ...

I can't see a buy back / generous trade-in / trade-up scheme to encourage users to scrap "non-compliant" saws and purchase new "compliant" saws being effective - even if legislation is introduced to mandate upgrades.

Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct, MT.

You cannot retrofit the safety features of an S-Class Mercedes into a twenty year old mini. But many of those safety features have compulsarily or otherwise been incorporated into cheaper current model vehicles, and the safety features keep evolving. Generally they flow from the expensive models to the cheaper models - often called "trickle down".

Let us hope something similar happens with saw benches. And quickly!