Thread: Sharpening/Lapping with Wet and Dry

SilentC,

I had the same trouble with my Hirsch chisels as you did with your Two Cherries - they come from the sam factory. But I found the main problem to be not so much the rounding of the corners - this could be cured by flattening the sides of the chisel blade - as the rounding that occurred between the back of the blade and the chisel's edge. I ground the backs of the chisels on a diamond plate to flatten them, and then honed the chisels' bevels on the diamond plate to remove about 0.5 mm of steel to remove the rounded radius between the flattened back and the edge. It was a laborious process; but now I am very happy with the chisels - just wish the polishing process had not made it necessary. I suggested in an earlier thread that perhaps Rob Lee (of Lee Valley) should make representations to the factory to dissuade them polishing the blades, but I don't know whether he saw my suggestion or took any action.

I have the same reservations as you about the scary sharp method of sharpening, which is why I don't use it. Similarly, waterstones need to be flattened frequently on a diamond stone. So why not just use a diamond stone for honing in the first place? But this argument has been exhaustively dealt with in earlier threads, so I hesitate to provoke further discussion of it.

Rocker

I have to admit I've never been a big fan of SS. Your experiences only confirm my reservations.

I am more disapointed to hear about the hirsch chisels, They are on the wish list, the work, which appears to go with them to get them going, isn't.

I do the final sharpen on a glass plate with 1000 and 2500 wet and dry, the only difference is that the paper is imported from the states and is self adhesive on a mylar base not paper. This makes a big difference.

Similarly, waterstones need to be flattened frequently on a diamond stone. So why not just use a diamond stone for honing in the first place?

I use a sheet of plasterboard sanding mesh on a sheet of glass to do this, or in a pinch some wet and dry. It doesn't matter if the edges of the stone are rounded, in fact I usually bevel them to prevent the edges crumbling. I use King stones which are quite soft.

I'm quite happy with the results I get from the waterstones. I've thought of buying a diamond stone for heavy grinding but I've read reports that suggest they are actually less aggressive than an 800 grit waterstone once the points of the diamonds have been worn off. I suppose the advantage of the diamond stone is that it doesn't require constant flattening.

Originally Posted by Termite

I do the final sharpen on a glass plate with 1000 and 2500 wet and dry, the only difference is that the paper is imported from the states and is self adhesive on a mylar base not paper. This makes a big difference.

Yes that would make all the difference. I'm just using ordinary wet and dry from the local hardware shop.

Hey Guys,

I cant add much value to what your saying as i've never tried ss or done much particular flattening of chisels etc... I appreciate what your saying however.... the comment about the paper compressing is interesting....

One comment I would make is that I've never found the need to "flatten" a chisel or do any extraordinary sharpening beyond a 8" grinder with a soft coarse wheel and a fine stone to hone with... I always get clean cuts and my chisels stay sharp even though they are just old cheap NHL's with plastic handles. I sharpen my hand plane the same way - which by the way is NOT a cheap plastic handled jobbie (Jig on 8" wheel then hone on stone) and it cuts through the hardest hardwood I've got like butter with the finest of shavings floaring to the floor.

I always manage to shave my skin bare with this technique so I wonder if your discussion is simply for the "purists" ????

Zed,

I didn't want to re-open the 'How do you sharpen your tools' poll. You do as much or as little as you think you need to in order to get the results you want. No argument there.

I was curious to know if others have had the same experience with wet and dry and whether or not my 'theory' was going to be shot down in flames.

BTW if you ever buy a Kirschen or Hirsch chisel, you will find a need to flatten the back of it, unless you want a round-cornered chisel for some obscure reason.

I always like trying new methods, and SilentC said it better than anyone, SS is just no good at getting things flat unless you start with a concavity first. I also found that using no water or lubricant is better, not as messy, just vacuum the dust up.

My latest method just uses a 220 waterstone (one of those Shaptons - get the 120, it'll be faster), an aluminium plate and some silvo! Backs don't get polished, just a couple of strops of the very tip of the bevel on the ally plate with silvo gets the job done.

Silent - there seems to be a general concensus amongst the respondents so far that the SS system has this problem. As I've said elsewhere on this BB, the scariest thing about the method is all the perfectly good tools that are being screwed up out there!
I use oilstones, but only because that's what I started with, and I'm at the age where change is too hard to cope with. They cut a bit more slowly than waterstones, yet still plenty fast enough for me, with a very light oil. They don't need flattening as often, but they still need treating regularly to maintain a flat, clean-cutting surface. I'd probably advise anyone starting out to go with waterstones, as long as they are prepared to put in the necessary surface maintenance.
No need to worry about bringing up hoary chestnuts, Rocker - this topic will continue to be debated long after we've left the scene!
In answer to the Q. of why not use diamond stones for the whole process - I've had a diamaond lap for a very long time, and used it for back-flattening. It's a 'fine' grade, but cuts much more aggressively than a fine carborundum, and from the surface it leaves, I'd say the particle size is considerably coarser than say a 'fine' carborundum stone. Although I used it for initial cleanup off the grinder, for e.g., the edge is nowhere near polished enough for me, and I move through two grades of Arkansas stones before I get the edge I prefer.
And wrt the cutting action of diamonds, yeah, I was reminded how quickly they 'settle' when I lashed out and bought the big double-sided monster at this year's WWW show. The 'medium' side really ripped metal off for the first few dozen strokes, but soon settled down to a much more sedate rate of removal. Diamond being a very brittle material, I suppose the really sharp edges soon break off. Their big advantage is that they do remain flat, i.e. as flat as they are made in the first place. Beware the cheapies though - a friend bought one last year. It cuts alright, but has a dish in it, and leaves tool backs like they'd been through the SS method!
Cheers,

Originally Posted by silentC

I was curious to know if others have had the same experience with wet and dry and whether or not my 'theory' was going to be shot down in flames.

Yes!!
tried it (SS) a few times, went back to my diamond plate and oilstones, far crisper edges this way.
Wet'n dry is great for plane soles etc, but thats where it stops now.
Also to add fuel to the fire, I am in two minds about the green honing compounds ability to do anything other than polish the flats of the bevels to the naked eye.

Very interesting.

I've been trying to flatten the back of a plane iron lately using SS. But I just can seem to get the very tip of it flat. About 2mm back from the edge it's mirror smooth. Funny thing is that if I mark the whole surface with a magicmarker, a few strokes will remove it right up to the edge, yet it doesnt seem flatten up to the edge.

Hmmmmmm, I will give this more thought. I've always wanted to get some stones but the thought of flattening them aswell as sharpening everything else just seems like tedium to me.

Originally Posted by LineLefty

Funny thing is that if I mark the whole surface with a magicmarker, a few strokes will remove it right up to the edge, yet it doesnt seem flatten up to that point.

Q.E.D., I'd say, Adam...........

To flatten it right up to the very tip, you need to be removing material from the entire area of the blade that you are lapping. It takes very little effort to install a curve but much more to remove it because of the sheer volume of steel you have to shift. If you want the entire back of the blade in plane, it will takes ages to wear it all away so that it is flat from tip to top.

I'd say it takes little abrasive action to remove ink. The wet and dry only needs to be in contact lightly with that area of the blade to remove the ink. Also, if I'm right about the paper compressing and buckling, the paper will tend to follow the contours of the blade. If the blade has a curve in it, then the paper will tend to curve with it.

On the other hand, a stone does not compress (under human-achievable force) and so it will not fold up around the edge of the blade like this.

Originally Posted by Termite

I do the final sharpen on a glass plate with 1000 and 2500 wet and dry, the only difference is that the paper is imported from the states and is self adhesive on a mylar base not paper. This makes a big difference.

Termite, what is the paper you're using and where are you ordering it from? Cost?

Does anyone buy the 3M microfinishing paper here in Oz?


Sean