Thread: Suttons viper vs Milwaukee red helix

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

When I came to Oz nearly 20 years ago I quickly found my rather well-used tooling urinated from a great height all over the P&N and Sutton tools I was expected to teach with and use.

Oh puuulease. Confirmation bias maybe?

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

When a standard Dormer HSS jobber drill will drill out a 316 grade 8.8 bolt that has already blunted two brand new Sutton Viper cobalt drill bits you start to wonder what they made them from….

The Sutton Vipers aren't cobalt! They are M2 HSS. You should have read the label. You would have saved some money.

Originally Posted by jack620

Oh puuulease. Confirmation bias maybe?

No; I had no preconceptions of the brands. I got rather confused as to why drill bits were getting blunt, taps would squeal and or snap and dies tended to tear threads unless you took multiple passes with tiny increments. First I thought it was the students (Navy Marine Technician apprentices) being too heavy handed (which of course they were) but when I was using them myself I could feel them being heavy going and blunt-ish even when brand new. I took in some of my own to compare and they were MUCH better; I ended up using Sutton tools for roughing out and my own for either finishing or where I couldn’t risk an act of vertical copulation.

The Sutton Vipers aren't cobalt! They are M2 HSS. You should have read the label. You would have saved some money.

My error in naming them “Vipers”. They were definitely the Sutton cobalts, purple boxed set SM2. Fortunately I didn’t purchase them; I ordered them for my workshop. The bits were blunted by (again) over-zealous Marine Techs who thankfully stopped at two before calling me in to de-fornicate their errors.

Interestingly; I just found a Sutton “press release” from 2016 where they were spruiking that their HSS now came from Europe…. Independent testing shows Sutton Tools’ Viper Plus and INOX drill bits are class leaders | Sutton Tools My comparison definitely pre-dates this by a decade.

Originally Posted by jack620

FWIW, I find the Sutton Vipers (made in NZ) to be at least as good as the handfull of Dormers I've collected over the years.

I found i am leaning towards the vipers as replacement are easy to get from bunnings and total tools as well others.
If there is a good advantage to other and are really easy to get replacement then i will consider them

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

My error in naming them “Vipers”. They were definitely the Sutton cobalts, purple boxed set SM2. Fortunately I didn’t purchase them; I ordered them for my workshop. The bits were blunted by (again) over-zealous Marine Techs who thankfully stopped at two before calling me in to de-fornicate their errors.

Interestingly; I just found a Sutton “press release” from 2016 where they were spruiking that their HSS now came from Europe…. Independent testing shows Sutton Tools’ Viper Plus and INOX drill bits are class leaders | Sutton Tools My comparison definitely pre-dates this by a decade.

I have the sutton heavy duty m35 cobalt bits and haven't had issue. It the one in purple container. Just want to keep them for harder material and use new set for most others.
Those inox bits by suttons i heard are not too bad.
Back in my mining engineering days we used suttons on a makita drill.
Now i do other stuff

Originally Posted by Itms

I have the sutton heavy duty m35 cobalt bits and haven't had issue.

Me either. I think they are superb. They would certainly eat a 316 bolt for breakfast.

Cheif Tiff has admitted that the two Sutton drill bits were blunted by the Techs. In that case it's very misleading for him to compare them unfavourably with his Dormer bits. A Sutton cobalt bit, used correctly, will drill 316 all day.

BTW, can you even get a grade 8.8 bolt in 316? I think 316 would be a grade A4 bolt.

Originally Posted by jack620

Me either. I think they are superb. They would certainly eat a 316 bolt for breakfast.

Cheif Tiff has admitted that the two Sutton drill bits were blunted by the Techs. In that case it's very misleading for him to compare them unfavourably with his Dormer bits. A Sutton cobalt bit, used correctly, will drill 316 all day.

BTW, can you even get a grade 8.8 bolt in 316? I think 316 would be a grade A4 bolt.

I go thru 5mm 316 and drill hundreds on my cobalts.
Want to save them for that type of work and get a normal hss set for mild and wood and such.

Originally Posted by Itms

I go thru 5mm 316 and drill hundreds on my cobalts.
Want to save them for that type of work and get a normal hss set for mild and wood and such.

HSS just as good as cobalt if you run it at the right speeds. Just dont let the apprentice use your drill bits.

Handheld drill, all bets are off though.

Originally Posted by Pearo

HSS just as good as cobalt if you run it at the right speeds. Just dont let the apprentice use your drill bits.

Handheld drill, all bets are off though.

Cobalt are 3x of price to replace and easier to snap. I use lube, correct speed and pressure.

I dont let them use my tools i give them a old one to use, never my good stuff. They aint touching my cobalts.

Originally Posted by jack620

BTW, can you even get a grade 8.8 bolt in 316? I think 316 would be a grade A4 bolt.

Yes; A4 only refers to the material, 8.8 refers to the tensile and yield strengths. Normal high tensile 316SS are marked A4-80 but there are applications that require 8.8 high tensile with A4 corrosion resistance or low magnetic signature. Hobson Bumax bolts are an example.

A lot of people blame tools for their problems.

At the mens shed the supervisor asked me if I would source some bits for use by members on difficult steels like stainless. I bought some M42 (Cobalt) bits from ebay as I had previously used these successfully myself on a project that involved 12mm thick Bisalloy plates.

A week or so later (I was not there) one of the members tried using a DP to drill some stainless with a regular HSS bit and ran into trouble. After gnawing away at it for a while he approached the supervisor who said"'use one of Bobs bits and use very high pressure", but the member managed somehow to do this.



It's hard to see, but this bit has a galled cap of SS sitting on the end. When I went in for my weekly visit the supervisor complained to me that I had purchased dodgy bits.
I tried to find the member who was using the bit but he was not around - however I knew which bench drill press he was using and the speed is never changed on that DP and when I check it was still at ~1000 rpm.

I took an offcuts of the same stainless steel the member had been trying to drill, the bent bit and another new bit the same size home and tried the new bit on some 6mm SS myself using 400 rpm.
Absolutely no problem. Labeled N are the two holes drilled with the new bit.
I cut the bend off the old bit, reground the tip and drilled the two holes marked "O"
In this photo you can see the galled SS cap on the end of the cut off bit tip.

I then proceeded to drill about 20 holes with the shortened bit.

I emailed the member and supervisor with the above photo and the member confirmed the use of high rpms - he thought it would cut better and he also confirmed the bit was eventually glowing yellow hot.
What had happened is that using the HSS (probably blunt bit) first, work hardened the SS so much that even the M42 bit would not cut through it. The said member had continued to gnaw on the same hole and of course he ran into trouble. The solution then if the same hole was to be drilled out would have been to use a carbide bit.

The supervisor is a former metal work teacher and should have know this but as usual he was probably busy and did not follow up on exactly what had happened.

You must have the patience of a saint to work in a men's shed Bob. I think I'd lose it.

Originally Posted by jack620

You must have the patience of a saint to work in a men's shed Bob. I think I'd lose it.

I did lose it a couple of times, but I've not been a member of our local shed since last July.
I still visit mens sheds, sometimes multiple times.
At a recent count I worked out I have been to about 30 different mens shed to provide advice about dust extraction.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Elan, have you used Dormer and can compare both? I have a set of imperial Dormer which I bought about 40 years ago and also a set of Dormer number drills that were bought not long after and I bet they weren't made in Brazil.

There is an old 1-10 x 0.1mm Dormer TiN coated set in the cupboard that I've used a few times; no complaints but haven't used it enough to really compare.

Originally Posted by BobL

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A bit for drilling around corners?