Thread: What timber to use???

The quality of Cedar very much determines its workability. Much of the Cedar sold today is young and or fast growing stuff which can create all sorts of problems when it comes to working it. Old growth, dark red, lowlog material will work as well as a prime piece of Walnut.

Originally Posted by rustynail

The quality of Cedar very much determines its workability. Much of the Cedar sold today is young and or fast growing stuff which can create all sorts of problems when it comes to working it. Old growth, dark red, lowlog material will work as well as a prime piece of Walnut.

It has been a while since I've seen any old growth red cedar in any quantity. The stuff that is around can be highly variable in colour and density.

Originally Posted by rustynail

The quality of Cedar very much determines its workability.....
.....Old growth, dark red, lowlog material will work as well as a prime piece of Walnut.

The first statement I agree with, Rusty, but my own experience doesn't support the second. I've worked quite a bit of dense old cedar, coming from the Atherton Tableland, & plenty of (American) walnut in my years in Canada. While most old-growth cedar is far, far better to work than some of the imported coloured Balsa that's sold as red cedar, I don't think I have ever struck any cedar that cuts as crisply & cleanly as Black Walnut. I hate to be un-patriotic, but I would class Walnut as a superior cabinet timber in just about every respect. If I was to nominate a local wood that compares in workability to Walnut, I reckon I'd choose Qld Maple rather than cedar....

Cheers,

Well there we go, another difference of opinion. Most of the quality cedar was purchased by the railways. My first trade was done there. The quality of the cedar was exceptional and I will stand by my statement. As for walnut, I love the stuff and agree that as a working timber it is hard to beat. I do about a dozen rifle stocks a year and have done so for about forty years. Should you ever be down this way I would be happy to show you cedar that would rate with any walnut. I think you will find that what we get down here is of much better quality than up north. It is slower grown and thats important for dense material.

All this discussion is very interesting, but not always material, depending on what you value most and what you are looking for.

For me, workability ranks behind looks and how the timber performs in service, but others think differently. Even then, these things change with circumstance. I have used cedar for my bedroom furniture, and am happy with the choice, but it would not occur to me to use it for my grandsons' bedrooms.

In addition, many of the much vaunted cabinet timbers are now in such short supply (especially quality material) that they have become wickedly expensive. A mate in Indiana tried to buy some good quality cabinet grade American walnut a couple of years ago. At last reports he was still trying to catch his breath after hearing the price. A few years ago, NG rosewood was relatively inexpensive. Got a quote today for $3,400 per cube, plus GST. Things have changed.

Then there is good old personal choice, and there is no accounting for taste. Usually, I don't like waney edges on furniture; others love it. That's fine. We like what we like.

Finally, we should return to the original question. By my reckoning Ian was correct to suggest that the cedar available today does not chisel well. It is likely true that old growth, low log material does chisel much better, but I am unable to source such material. If anyone knows of a source of such timber, please post the details. I like red cedar enough to buy some top quality timber and put it to stock. The same goes for NG Rosewood.

Andrew said, " My concerns are movement, making sure i use timbers that are not too oily and something that is not too hard or soft to work with."

My vote still goes to Camphor Laurel, followed by NG Rosewood. They are pretty, work well and have low movement in service.

One of the advantages of saucing and milling your own timber is the pleasure of coming across some nice stuff that hasn't been picked over by every Tom, Dick and Harry. Some years back,I had the opportunity of getting hold of a landslide cedar on the mid north coast of NSW. This tree went 1.6m at breast height, was growing on the south western face of a steep incline. The whole thing came down, roots and all, after some prolonged heavy rain. Upon doing a ring count, we got back to 1770 and there was still quite a bit before we hit the centre but the rings were too tight to count with the naked eye. The timber sawn from this tree has been an absolute joy to work. If it wasn't for the colour, you would swear you were working walnut.

That sounds like a pretty special tree alright, RN - a windfall in every sense of the word. Wish something like that would fall into my hands! I get an occasional backyard tree after a big storm, and as much she-oak as I can manage from my brother's place (which is 1800Ks away, unfortunately), but the only wood I can get to mill for myself semi-regularly round here is Camphor Laurel. It's ok for some jobs (in fact rather good for blanket boxes!), but I don't think I would want more than a couple of pieces of CL furniture in any one house. A tree like yours could keep me very busy & very happy for a year or two, I reckon...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

A tree like yours could keep me very busy & very happy for a year or two, I reckon...

Cheers,

Absolutely. Sourcing good timber is my biggest issue right now. As someone who does not have the contacts who source and mill their own trees, I can seldom get the stuff I want. I know of a bloke who imported some beautiful burl recently, and badly wanted some for the drawer and door fronts of a desk I will soon make. But I am told most of it was cut into pen blanks, because that was the best economic outcome for the importer. I could have wept.

Originally Posted by Greg Ward

Cedar: 50mm no problem. 75mm also OK, but you will need to resaw as they will be either rough cut or natural edge.
Inch boards are rough sawn to 27mm and then can be thicknessed to 19-22mm.
Widths, 150, 250, 275, 300mm some with natural edge.
I can thickness for you if you need

Rosewood: I am in the middle of getting some more rosewood boards with splits or shorts etc prepared for sale. Great quality and colour timber so these would be fine as well if you want, sister boards but not 50 or 75mm thick available. widths 150-250mm
Greg

Perfect, I will let you know as soon as I can.

Andrew

Originally Posted by IanW

Andrew, when you say "all dovetailed, even the base", do you mean you are going to dovetail the plinth? I first read it as meaning you are going to dovetail the bottom of the chest to the sides, which would not only be a logistical challenge, it could cause structural problems - two sides would have very weak cross-grain tails, & you might lose a few during assembly. Most plinths are mitred, & on many old pine chests the pieces are nailed to the sides of the box, which is an inelegant, but durable solution. A lot of makers dovetail the plinth corners, now, but I like to use hidden dovetails for this bit, so they look like they are mitred, but the joint is a bit stronger. Of course only you know how good your work is, when the d/ts are hidden....

Cedar is a good choice for a 'showpiece' item, it comes up very nicely under most finishes. But be aware it also has a fairly strong odour, though not as powerful or as long-lasting as Camphor. However, one word of warning if you are fairly new to dovetailing - cedar is not a chisel-friendly wood, it can crumble and leave great voids when you are cleaning out the waste between tails & pins. You can minimise this by using a very sharp chisel, ground at a low angle, & taking it very carefully, but some softer pieces will still give you grief. Practice chiselling a few offcuts before you get stuck into the real thing. Camphor is a much easier wood to work with in this respect, because it cuts crisply & cleanly.
Cheers,

Yes I wanted to dovetail the plinth, and I was considering a surround on the top that also was dovetailed. I have some experience with dovetails but not in cedar. I was planning to do lapped dovetails. Would you recommend on not using the cedar?

Another question for you, do you think I should draw up a proper shop drawing? When I do furniture for myself, I usually just wing it. Make changes as I go and decide on things when I get to them. I will need some kind of cutting list for the quantity of timber. But is a rough idea in my head ok? I am interested in your opinion.

I plan on putting some small drawers at the bottom. I was going to mortice and tenon the drawer rails into the box.

Big glue up job but I like the challenge.

Andrew

Originally Posted by The Muss

Yes I wanted to dovetail the plinth, and I was considering a surround on the top that also was dovetailed. I have some experience with dovetails but not in cedar. I was planning to do lapped dovetails. Would you recommend on not using the cedar?

Andrew, you should use the wood you want, it's your project! I was just warning you that cedar can be difficult stuff to cut with chisels. If you practice on some scrap, you'll soon get the feel of it..

Originally Posted by The Muss

...Another question for you, do you think I should draw up a proper shop drawing? When I do furniture for myself, I usually just wing it. Make changes as I go and decide on things when I get to them. I will need some kind of cutting list for the quantity of timber. But is a rough idea in my head ok? I am interested in your opinion.

Well, I would at least do a good sketch, myself. You will need something to work out your wood sizes & requirements. Giving a wood supplier a reasonable 'cut list' means they can make up your order with minimum waste. I confess I don't often do a set of 'proper' drawings unless making something complex that I've not tackled before, but they can be very helpful. A scale plan and elevation allows you to check that the proportions are in the ball park, too - I made some god-awful lemons "out of my head" in my early days! If I am making something simple like a table, I usually just do an 'isometric' sketch, on which I mark dimensions, but may do detailed sketches of any complicated sections, to work out the joinery. That's pretty straightforward in your case, but you do need to think through how any internal parts like drawer runners are going to be set in place as you assemble the sides. In doing a sketch, you get to think things through, and (usually!) spot any steps that are going to be impossible if you don't do them in the right order. I guess I'm thinking of something like a cabinet with dividers & drawer runners fitting in sliding dovetails, where you have to assemble in the right order, or find yourself with a few bits left over....

And just because I have a plan doesn't mean I can't change things as I go along! For example, I might find the rough wood I had set aside for door panels doesn't clean up quite wide enough, & the stiles need a few mm added each side. Such things are easier to calculate if you are working with a set of detailed sketches.

But everyone has his/her own way of working......
Cheers,

Hello Andrew,
Have you seen any silky oak. You may have the local nsw version - grevillia robusta around there, I don't know. True silky from Qld will go browner with age, the grevillia will go more orange brown. I have enjoyed using both-very good to work and can provide some wild book matching because of the medular ray grain. Both very stable timbers. Whatever timber you choose you can always put a camphor panel into the chest to keep the insect repellant properties.
Cheers Tony.

Originally Posted by noty

Hello Andrew,
Have you seen any silky oak. You may have the local nsw version - grevillia robusta around there, I don't know. True silky from Qld will go browner with age, the grevillia will go more orange brown. I have enjoyed using both-very good to work and can provide some wild book matching because of the medular ray grain. Both very stable timbers. Whatever timber you choose you can always put a camphor panel into the chest to keep the insect repellant properties.
Cheers Tony.

Hello,

I have worked with it before, and I have to admit I do like it.

There are so many good ideas in this thread now I definitely have some thinking to do.

Andrew

Originally Posted by IanW

Andrew, you should use the wood you want, it's your project! I was just warning you that cedar can be difficult stuff to cut with chisels. If you practice on some scrap, you'll soon get the feel of it..



Well, I would at least do a good sketch, myself. You will need something to work out your wood sizes & requirements. Giving a wood supplier a reasonable 'cut list' means they can make up your order with minimum waste. I confess I don't often do a set of 'proper' drawings unless making something complex that I've not tackled before, but they can be very helpful. A scale plan and elevation allows you to check that the proportions are in the ball park, too - I made some god-awful lemons "out of my head" in my early days! If I am making something simple like a table, I usually just do an 'isometric' sketch, on which I mark dimensions, but may do detailed sketches of any complicated sections, to work out the joinery. That's pretty straightforward in your case, but you do need to think through how any internal parts like drawer runners are going to be set in place as you assemble the sides. In doing a sketch, you get to think things through, and (usually!) spot any steps that are going to be impossible if you don't do them in the right order. I guess I'm thinking of something like a cabinet with dividers & drawer runners fitting in sliding dovetails, where you have to assemble in the right order, or find yourself with a few bits left over....

And just because I have a plan doesn't mean I can't change things as I go along! For example, I might find the rough wood I had set aside for door panels doesn't clean up quite wide enough, & the stiles need a few mm added each side. Such things are easier to calculate if you are working with a set of detailed sketches.

But everyone has his/her own way of working......
Cheers,

I think I will do a proper scale drawing, I'm sure I will be better off if I do that.

I still want to use cedar but I know I will probably regret it when I start to cut the dovetails.