Thread: Big Timber?

Originally Posted by Beardy

you can’t cut it locally if it has already been chipped and sent on a boat to China. I don’t blame the mills, they are just trying to turn a dollar under the circumstances they operate in but yes the Pollies have a lot to answer for.
Our opportunities with our natural resources are wasted

I dont think mill logs are being chipped. At least I hope not.

Originally Posted by rustynail

I dont think mill logs are being chipped. At least I hope not.

I hope not too but that was the impression I got, hopefully John.G can give us more insight?

One positive thing he did say was that they have tightened up on the Merbau imports and it is getting expensive as a result, a lot of it is finger jointed as long lengths are getting scarce
Hopefully good news for the Orangutans

As a species we are fantastically short sighted.

What happens when the forests are gone, the seas fished to death and the coal all dug up and burnt?

What a legacy for our children.

I'll toss a couple numbers at all this just to give you an idea.

Lancewood is currently around $400 a ton ex wharf.
Spotty/ironbark/bluegum etc... around $240.
Tallow/turpentine around $300.
Minimum size is 300mm top on 3.0m... yard post size.

Veneer grade logs are a significant premium over and above.

Average recovery on the Queensland Western Hardwoods schedule compulsory log scale... (brace yourself Ken) 33%. (Because 250mm x 2.4 is a compulsory log, and at 500mm diameter they can carry a 28cm pipe and still be compulsory.... and a couple of them in every load knocks the average back real quick. The days of 60% logs are dead and gone.... the resource has changed.

Freight cost... the cost to ship a container to China is about $5k, comprising $500 in shipping costs and $4500 to shift the container from truck to hull because we have the worlds worst port system. THE worst. $5k of road freight here gets you about 1000km with a single trailer semi with the same dammed load on it.... almost to Brisbane in other words.

Theres two distinct industries being talked about in this thread. One is woodchip, the other is export log. Woodchip is a bad bad business in that wherever they go, over harvesting followed by resource issues and mill closures follows. I'll be honest and say i know little about chip.... its a different game again.

Thing is that the chinese run these super efficient mills that we cant match because theres no one place in Australia with sufficient resource to feed that mill... and its cheaper to ship the log overseas then down the road.

Look its real simple.... i can sell a veneer grade log for $600 a cube, or cut him and get maybe 50% recovery and sell it for $1300 a cube at wholesale. I cannot put a log through a mill for the $100 extra - not even close.
Those little 300mm x 3.0's... I was going to average about 25%. So I can get @240 a cube wharf... or I can use (at 25%) $960 worth of log and mill 4 cube for 1300... again i cannot put 4 cube of log through a mill for $340.

I dont like this. I think it sucks. I would far rather mill then be a logging contractor. But I got a wife and kids to feed and a mortgage and there'll be no pension by the time I get there. Theres no reward for being a hero... half y'all go to Bunnings and buy the cheapest thing on the shelf anyway and half of that has been to china for processing and then shipped back to Oz. Its a business, and you either go with it or go broke. Because you can cut the log at Eden or Townsville, ship it to China, turn it into boards and ship them back to Armidale or Bendigo cheaper then you can saw the boards here and truck them up the road. Its madness.

Just remember you lot... you guys voted for the pricks that let this happen... or someone did. You want to complain at someone go look inna mirror.

Originally Posted by John.G

I'll toss a couple numbers at all this just to give you an idea.

Lancewood is currently around $400 a ton ex wharf.
Spotty/ironbark/bluegum etc... around $240.
Tallow/turpentine around $300.
Minimum size is 300mm top on 3.0m... yard post size.

Veneer grade logs are a significant premium over and above.

Average recovery on the Queensland Western Hardwoods schedule compulsory log scale... (brace yourself Ken) 33%. (Because 250mm x 2.4 is a compulsory log, and at 500mm diameter they can carry a 28cm pipe and still be compulsory.... and a couple of them in every load knocks the average back real quick. The days of 60% logs are dead and gone.... the resource has changed.

Freight cost... the cost to ship a container to China is about $5k, comprising $500 in shipping costs and $4500 to shift the container from truck to hull because we have the worlds worst port system. THE worst. $5k of road freight here gets you about 1000km with a single trailer semi with the same dammed load on it.... almost to Brisbane in other words.

Theres two distinct industries being talked about in this thread. One is woodchip, the other is export log. Woodchip is a bad bad business in that wherever they go, over harvesting followed by resource issues and mill closures follows. I'll be honest and say i know little about chip.... its a different game again.

Thing is that the chinese run these super efficient mills that we cant match because theres no one place in Australia with sufficient resource to feed that mill... and its cheaper to ship the log overseas then down the road.

Look its real simple.... i can sell a veneer grade log for $600 a cube, or cut him and get maybe 50% recovery and sell it for $1300 a cube at wholesale. I cannot put a log through a mill for the $100 extra - not even close.
Those little 300mm x 3.0's... I was going to average about 25%. So I can get @240 a cube wharf... or I can use (at 25%) $960 worth of log and mill 4 cube for 1300... again i cannot put 4 cube of log through a mill for $340.

I dont like this. I think it sucks. I would far rather mill then be a logging contractor. But I got a wife and kids to feed and a mortgage and there'll be no pension by the time I get there. Theres no reward for being a hero... half y'all go to Bunnings and buy the cheapest thing on the shelf anyway and half of that has been to china for processing and then shipped back to Oz. Its a business, and you either go with it or go broke. Because you can cut the log at Eden or Townsville, ship it to China, turn it into boards and ship them back to Armidale or Bendigo cheaper then you can saw the boards here and truck them up the road. Its madness.

Just remember you lot... you guys voted for the pricks that let this happen... or someone did. You want to complain at someone go look inna mirror.

Thanks for the insight on how it works, it is a similar story in other industries as well. Australians are their own worst enemy for allowing us to get into such a state.

Thanks John. Yes I am a dinosaur. Much has changed in recent years and it isn't all good. Your figures are alarming, I was not aware things had been allowed to get to this level. I guess it just goes to show what happens when you put idiots in charge of the asylum. I am glad I am no longer part of this fiasco. I thought it was bad enough back in my day, but I can see things are still going down hill at an alarming rate. The sad thing is; the principles remain the same. When its gone its gone. Industries need heroes. Without them we become sheep, one following the other to their inevitable demise. I understand that a man must make a dollar but that dollar needs to be examined closely before acceptance because sometimes that shiny bit of metal looses it's brilliance in the grand scheme of things.

fletty and I were at the Uki Mill recently, and they had some 100mm thick slabs which I think were Southern Silky Oak (Grevillea robusta). Uki is less than 2 hours from Brisbane CBD. They are probably dry - they didn't look like they'd been moved in *quite some time*. Stacked, stickered and strapped, so should be pretty flat.

Trev is the owner of the mill, and Hayden & Dan helped us out. Ph 6679 5116. The slabs were over at the end of the shed (Hayden knows). Tell 'em the weird city guys with the Disco & trailer from a couple of weeks ago sent you! (or stay quiet if you want a good price)

fletty picked up a couple of seasoned Forest Redgum boards, and for me it was Bloodwood and Red Stringybark, which is still very green and unbelievably heavy (pretty though). Such pretty boards being cut for sleepers - terrible waste. (I have some recollection nagging me that Red Stringy is a bugger of a thing to work.......)

If the log recovery rate is 35%, what happens to all that's left?

If chippers take the whole log, won't they take the left-overs after milling?

The wood chip industry needs high volumes to pay.... takes a whole lot of fibre to fill the hold of a ship. So they only operate where they can get volume close to a port because chip isnt that lucrative in terms of carrying a road freight bill.

And you've just mentioned the double edged sword that it presents to the processing factor. On the one hand it gives a market for 40 or so % of the log that we would otherwise not have. On the other we all know that wherever the chippers go the industry harvests itself to a stop in 40 years... the maw of that chipper is insatiable.

Not enough processing capacity up here to support the chippers... we dispose of the waste by burning although we get a bit out to a few byproduct markets where it makes economic sense.

Perhaps biochar, firewood, charcoal, carbon credit sales to simply bury it?

It seems to me these industries are all the traders are talking about (other than the impending debt crisis about to hit).

It seems such a shame a good product can't find a home.

Shows how badly we need auto-trucks and to break the stranglehold they have on this country.

Unlike most small mills I pull most of my downgrade out (where practicable)... stakes, stuff like that. That pushes my average a tad higher then the average, and I've got a bit of equipment that makes it easier then most to do so though its still a revenue neutral kinda thing if I paid myself a wage to operate it.

We also sell firewood, eat into a bit more of it, takes the chunky bits, offcuts, log ends and stuff out. It doesnt even pay the log cost... sawlog aint cheap by the time it lands in the yard.. but it keeps the beer fridge full and that matters too. Not a lot of demand for firewood in the tropics.

That leaves mostly sawdust and trimmings which are crap anyway. With the downgrade & firewood out theres not a lot of volume to it and it needs the trimmings to help it burn otherwise the heap just smoulders. I got a couple racehorse guys grab a load sometimes.

Charcoal needs chunky wood to produce, it can be a very valuable product if you got the right wood to make it.
Carbon credit sales are a lie: take away the government grants and its worthless.

I've often looked at installing a syngas generator but I'm just that bit small for it to add up. The kind of plant i'd use would be too big to come in under the renewables rebate stuff so i could sell it to the grid, and too big to be the kind of mW producer where they want you to sell to the grid... it makes a lot of sense but it kinda falls through the cracks. We make enough waste if i put the firewood back in to get about 50kVa continuous... not enough to run anything and you cant make power and not use it, so you really need the grid hookup for it to work.

Thanks for your posts John. They are some of the very best on the forum.... there are many that I've saved.

I read the Daily Timber News as well and I'll say that your posts give me much better, real, lowdown, information than the publication does.

It's very interesting to hear how you put it all together. How the markets are horribly inefficient (there is a lot of trader talk about THAT too!) and that literally every decision is driven (read: distorted) by government action/inaction/manipulation/incompetence/pandering/rebates/"laws", etc.

Seems to me that we need to get Man On The Ground to have a bigger voice in things, not just politicos/greenies, and appeasement of the serfs and peons.. I'm reading a book by Rowan Reid called Heartwood at the moment and he touches on a lot of this... especially the entire cycle management and the necessity of operations like yours.

We need to get smart as a country. Especially in forestry. We need a 1000-year plan. I sincerely hope that your voice is heard in the right places.

With respect my friend - you're dreaming. We produce the heaviest, premium dimension furniture in Australia, but the best we can get is American White Oak or Walnut in 3" x whatever width. Buy a chainsaw, visit a farmer and knock yourself out - the world's changed.

You could try to contact wood millers around Mullimbimby (closer to you) for local timbers and they could probably cut the timber to your specification.
Cheers
Doug