Thread: Is a tradesman a craftsman?

I trade my craft, and Im a crafty tradesman.
You work it out.

Al :confused:

Originally Posted by chook

So my distinction is this:
A tradesman is a person who has a set of skills in construction. The purpose of the skills is to construct and market products which are acceptable to some target market which is predominantly defined by price.

A craftsman is a person for whom the exercise of the skills and the construction of the items are almost an end in themselves.

The tradesman (rightly) asks "Will this satisfy the customer for the price they are paying?"

The craftsman asks (again rightly) " Is this the best way that I know or am able to do this?"

Interesting definition but IMO not correct. Your statement of what a tradesman is also applies to a craftsman (albeit to a smaller target market at a higher price) and vice versa with a craftsman if only to find the best way in order to reduce costs.

So:

The craftsman (rightly) asks "Will this satisfy the customer for the price they are paying?"

and,

The tradesman asks (again rightly) " Is this the best way that I know or am able to do this?"


Peter.

I think the clue is in the beginning of each word, "trade" and "craft". A tradesman is one who practices a trade, that is, a commercial activity whereas a craftsman practices a craft, an activity that combines skills and some decorative or aesthetic values. Some people are one, the other, both or either depending on the circumstances. 99% of the time I'm working with financial considerations but I like to think that I'm practicing a craft for more than 1% of the time. I like to do what I do well, but obviously I can't strive for the same standards when carrying out repairs on a owner built, low budget shanty (and believe me, around here there are places that don't deserve the title of "house") as I strive for on a multi million dollar boat fit out. I try to do what I do to the highest standard that the time/money constraints will allow.

Mick

I suspect that most tradesmen may like to refer to themselves as craftsmen, but would those who call themselves craftsmen prefer not to call themselves tradesmen? There is a conotation running through the discussions so far that a tradesman produces lower quality work than a craftsman.

As Mick has pointed out, standards are relative, and cost and time constraints are important ingredients in the mix. Surely it is a "craft" to produce a quality result with the materials given, regardless of cost? I think we are in danger of defining these terms on emotional or elitist grounds.

Interestingly, one dictionary definition of "tradesman" produced:
1. A man engaged in retail trade.
2. A craftsman.

Another produced:
1. One who trades; a shopkeeper.
2. A mechanic or artificer; esp., one whose livelihood depends upon the labor of his hands.

So the common denominator is that a tradesman is either a salesperson, or a person who works with their hands. Or, combining the two, a person who sells the service of hand-related work. If so, a tradesman and a craftsman are one and the same.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek

I quote " I think we are in danger of defining these terms on emotional or elitist grounds".

But far from it. As I was at pains to point out in the origonal thread, I have the greatest respect for tradesman who have vast range of skills required to successfully run a business. I become very aware in working with these people that even though I have a range of technical construction skills that I could not compete in the open market with them as they know how to make items at a speed and in such a manner as will satisfy a market. I know how to make items which will satisfy me. If ever I was to become a tradesman I would have much to learn. Also I imagine that in their leisure hours that some or even many of tbe tradesman (especially older ones) may practice a craft also. I do not consider the practice or skills of a craft to be superior to that of a trade. But I do say that they are different.

By the way whenever I see the name Derek on a thread I know that I am going to read something very interesting and informative.

Sturdee

I quote " The craftsman (rightly) asks "Will this satisfy the customer for the price they are paying?"

and,

The tradesman asks (again rightly) " Is this the best way that I know or am able to do this?"

This is an interesting way of looking at it and one I had not considered. On reflection I would say (maybe) that when I make something and begin to wonder about price and quality that I am beginning to practice a trade. The question "Will this satisfy the customer for the price they are paying?" is one that is asked in a thousand joinerys each day. It may involve compromises between the construction of the item and the price. When a craftsman asks these questions he or she is beginning to take into account something other than the shear technical skills and is (in my opinion) doing some of the things that a tradesman would do. Why for example do I still hand cut mortice and tennon joints? The process is slower by far than the use of chisel morticer and a tennoner. If I was a tradesman I would be very unwise to do so, but as a craftsman I have that choice.

Another post suggested that have made a distinction on the basis of quality. If I have then it was not my intention. It is true that the door that I might make, taking endless pains over it, could and should have a higher standard of joinery and finish, in one sense to that produced at a cost and within strict time restraints. But a customer who wanted to pay $x for a door of a certain type would not be impressed by either the time that they would have to wait or the price they would have to pay for the item from me. So in a very important sense the quality of my work would be deficient.

What I do know is that for me it is the taking of endless pains and time to get things just as right as I can that I enjoy. As much as I enjoy the occassional time in commercial workshops I would not find such work to be intrinsically satisfying in the long term. It is a good thing that many others do.

My twopennyworth,

I doubt that I could aford to employ anyone that I consider a craftsman to do work customised for me.

I have only seen one tradesman at work (a plasterer) that would lead me to consider them a craftsman for the past 20 years or so.

I have spent most of my working life doing jobs 'on the side' as they say here in the UK in order to raise funding for hobbies tools etc. a high percentage of those jobs were correcting/re-doing jobs initialy done by tradesmen.

In the last 3 months they have included making custom fit non standard double doors that builder said were not possible (presume because they could not be had off the shelf) and rehanging several sliding door units that said builder fitted and would not slide after 1 month.

The carpenter doing the second fittings on the same building considered himself a well experienced tradesman, not one skirting board or archatrave had a matching mitre on it.

(I doubt that many tradesmen could survive on 20 ton of well rotted manure for the vedge patch as payment for fitting out the new kitchen in the same building though).

Recently I spent an enjoyable day at a Wood working/turning exibition (Stoneleigh, Warwickshire); now there were certainly many craftsmen there that any worker of wood could only dream of matching. Even the better half said she could not believe some of the pieces were made of wood.
Thank goodness there are those out there with more disposable income than me to support them.

My bottom line(s) is/are:
I believe all craftsmen have potential to be tradesmen, few tradesmen are/or can afford to be craftsmen in todays rat race cost is everthing society.

Chas.

A tradesman works to an industry standard to which he was trained, a craftsman works from his heart, if you're lucky, and it happens only rarely, you can be both.

"I like to do what I do well, but obviously I can't strive for the same standards when carrying out repairs on a owner built, low budget shanty (and believe me, around here there are places that don't deserve the title of "house")"

shanties in kuranda? thought all the hippies and neo-hippies had sold out to hedley for another multi-million dollar unit block...

Originally Posted by gnu52

A tradesman works to an industry standard to which he was trained, a craftsman works from his heart, if you're lucky, and it happens only rarely, you can be both.

Welcome gnu52 like your quote

I was brought up in this world by a naval engineer who moved to the aviation industry. Bit of a perfectionist really. Started his working life at the ordinance factory in Maribrynong.

I served my trade as an Aircraft Instrument Maker. An industry like my forbear if not more so - there are no 2nd chances at 30,000' :eek: :eek:

So the perfectionist attitude of Dad was carried on through my trade life and subsequently into logistics & computer systems. Probably why I had three heart attacks in 18 months

Guess I'm still plagued by it

To me a tradesman is one who learns the skills of the craft - a good tradesman has the ability to fix the f@#k ups and a craftsman makes far fewer. The terms are a process, Some chose to develop them, some don't and yet others may compromise their skills for the sake of economy, convenience (read salesmanship) and profit.

My 2p FWIW.

Jamie

Digging among my old paperwork I have a big certificate from Sydney Tech which says "Tradesman Certificate - Boilermaker MetalFabricator - Strand B Pressure Vessels" digging further I find a small certificate in a wallet which says "Craftsmen Certificate of Competence - Boilermaker Welder First Class issued by the DIR".

So now I'm confused:confused: , I always thought that I was a crafty bugger but I remember my instructor telling me I might just make a tradesman's a**ehole yet..

Now I cut stones for a quid so what is it????

Cheers in qualification disorder

The tradesman is the modern day craftsman.
Tradesmen evolved from the (hand) craftsmen as sources of mechanical power became available and labor costs were able to be reduced as the productivity of the workers increased
But many hobbiests like to regard themselves as craftsmen as they use obsolete tools and work practises.

Originally Posted by echnidna

The tradesman is the modern day craftsman.
Tradesmen evolved from the (hand) craftsmen as sources of mechanical power became available and labor costs were able to be reduced as the productivity of the workers increased
But many hobbiests like to regard themselves as craftsmen as they use obsolete tools and work practises.

I thought the guilds of yesteryear where the forebears of the trades councils and as such governed the status of those admitted to the guild based on their skills. Those with greater skills were afforded higher status and hence craftsman of the particular trade.

Sad when your knowledge/memory is overtaken by your wisdom/memory ain't it

Jamie

Originally Posted by barnsey

I served my trade as an Aircraft Instrument Maker. An industry like my forbear if not more so - there are no 2nd chances at 30,000' :eek: :eek:
Jamie

Similar route to me then Jaimie, I started as Instrument Maker and converted to Aircraft Instrument Fitter in my latter years of apprentiship in order to do more work with electronics, (a lifelong hobby) this was all in a research environment, so like you I was made very much aware of the concequences of my "Stuff Ups" for the aircrew if terain following at 50 feet.
Sitting on the "inside face" of a luggage bay hatch at 4000ft trying to adjust an autopilot to tighter drift tolerances than the standard makes you think a lot about the guy in the crewroom who checked the latch bolts this morning.

Chas