Veneer substrate backing board

[lewisc]

I'm looking into options for a walnut veneered, table top backing board.

Does the backing board have to be solid timber? I came across this product in the states and searching to see if something is similar here. The main substrate will be MDF.

Polybak — Richwood Industries

[riverbuilder]

Yes, I get veneers pressed onto all sorts of different boards all the time. I use a company called Processed Forest Products here in Sydney, but I think Brims has an outlet in Melbourne, they are good. A good joinery or Shopfitting company will be able to point you in the right direction.

[elanjacobs]

My old work got a lot of veneered board from here Timberwood Panels | Home

I'm not sure I follow this "backing board" concept... Why would you not just press veneer on both sides?

Ideally, the back face should be a similar material and of equal thickness to the good face.

[lewisc]

My old work got a lot of veneered board from here Timberwood Panels | Home

I'm not sure I follow this "backing board" concept... Why would you not just press veneer on both sides?

Ideally, the back face should be a similar material and of equal thickness to the good face.

I'm doing a bit of extra research for one of my Yr12 students as I've never done much with veneers. Because she's set on walnut for the top, we've been looking into ideas for the underside as it won't be seen hence looking for another option that could be cheaper. I figured we'll just use victorian ash for the underside instead of walnut if we went with a cheaper timber.

How thick can you go with veneers? We were thinking about 2-3mm rather than the thin veneers that are available.

[elanjacobs]

When I was making parquetry top tables, I went up to 4-5mm thick, but you do start to get noticeable seasonal movement at that thickness so 2-3mm is probably a good place to be. My only hesitation with Vic Ash on the bottom is that it's usually quarter cut and Walnut is usually crown cut, so they will expand a different rates; if you're able to get some crown cut Vic Ash I think that would be ideal. It may not make a huge difference in practice, just my thoughts.

If you supply the veneers all ready to go, Timberwood can press it for you if you don't have access to a proper press (we had them do some 6mm "veneer" for us for engraving). Worth giving them a call to discuss options or even a visit if they're allowing non-employees on site with COVID.

[auscab]

I'm doing a bit of extra research for one of my Yr12 students as I've never done much with veneers. Because she's set on walnut for the top, we've been looking into ideas for the underside as it won't be seen hence looking for another option that could be cheaper. I figured we'll just use victorian ash for the underside instead of walnut if we went with a cheaper timber.

How thick can you go with veneers? We were thinking about 2-3mm rather than the thin veneers that are available.

Your wanting to use your own cut veneer and lay it ?
Then re sawing a 19mm Walnut board in half and re machining is an economical good way at getting 2 , 3, 5 or 6 mm . I do this and press it onto Marine Ply . A good quality ply is essential . The more quality laminations in the ply the more stable it is . It needs a border of solid to finish it off though .

You can also lay on Chip board , bought pre veneered chip board or the ever Horrific Custom wood but if the Student wants a good step up in quality for not much more go plywood . Its out last the others twenty times . And is as close to solid as you get its just been re engineered .

Buying sliced Walnut means your getting .6mm veneer. You may do that if you needed the figure that it can be had in if that's whats wanted. sliced burl and that sort of thing . You still need a border or surround to frame it . There's a number of ways to do this .

In the old days between 1840 onwards, sliced veneers were layed on solid Ground as its known . Not always done both sides either. Plenty of the one sided stuff is still good today . Some of it failed . The skill of the cabinetmakers who were good at laying one sided work with hide glue is a lost art I think .

Its also seen layed the safe way on both the sides of a solid timber ground. Some of the best work you see is Walnut laid on solid Mahogany as the Ground . Mahogany being a very good very stable ground.

With the border . A solid mitred frame is nice and easy like in the links Ill show of my tops which are sawn veneer laid on ply. A standard joined framed border can also be done without the 45 degree mitred corners .
Another way is pre laying before the veneer goes on a solid timber on the grounds edge and flattening it after its dry so veneer can be laid right up to the edge and its edge can be later moulded . Obviously the two framed methods above can be moulded as well .

If You want to saw and lay your own then doing a parquetry style is easy because pressing small shoe box size pieces is possible with a very simple one screw home made press . If you want to lay say 1.2 x 300 x 4mm sheets across a 1.2 wide top then things get a bit more difficult because you have to solve the making your own press problem . Pressing a sheet at a time can be done at the sides maybe and one piece at a time any size is easy but if its large then pressing all at once may be the go . A vacuum press is one option . I dont particularly like them but they work. Ive got a good one but prefer a screw press. Which I also have .
My favorite is the single screw doing parquetry .

Glue is important too . Steer clear of water based . If its used right it works without problems but applying a water based glue means veneers are growing in size from the second the glue goes on . And shrinking back is what it wants to do drying out . Two pack glue or poly glue with no moisture problems means this just doesnt happen .

Some pics of my Parq stuff.

This small Walnut coffee table is one .Login • Instagram

And this dining table has a few sawn timber types with a solid Oak mitred edge.
Login • Instagram

A quick sketch of what the student is thinking of doing will make it easier for us to help as there are a few ways to tackle it .
Rob

[lewisc]

Your wanting to use your own cut veneer and lay it ?
Then re sawing a 19mm Walnut board in half and re machining is an economical good way at getting 2 , 3, 5 or 6 mm . I do this and press it onto Marine Ply . A good quality ply is essential . The more quality laminations in the ply the more stable it is . It needs a border of solid to finish it off though .

You can also lay on Chip board , bought pre veneered chip board or the ever Horrific Custom wood but if the Student wants a good step up in quality for not much more go plywood . Its out last the others twenty times . And is as close to solid as you get its just been re engineered .

Buying sliced Walnut means your getting .6mm veneer. You may do that if you needed the figure that it can be had in if that's whats wanted. sliced burl and that sort of thing . You still need a border or surround to frame it . There's a number of ways to do this .

In the old days between 1840 onwards, sliced veneers were layed on solid Ground as its known . Not always done both sides either. Plenty of the one sided stuff is still good today . Some of it failed . The skill of the cabinetmakers who were good at laying one sided work with hide glue is a lost art I think .

Its also seen layed the safe way on both the sides of a solid timber ground. Some of the best work you see is Walnut laid on solid Mahogany as the Ground . Mahogany being a very good very stable ground.

With the border . A solid mitred frame is nice and easy like in the links Ill show of my tops which are sawn veneer laid on ply. A standard joined framed border can also be done without the 45 degree mitred corners .
Another way is pre laying before the veneer goes on a solid timber on the grounds edge and flattening it after its dry so veneer can be laid right up to the edge and its edge can be later moulded . Obviously the two framed methods above can be moulded as well .

If You want to saw and lay your own then doing a parquetry style is easy because pressing small shoe box size pieces is possible with a very simple one screw home made press . If you want to lay say 1.2 x 300 x 4mm sheets across a 1.2 wide top then things get a bit more difficult because you have to solve the making your own press problem . Pressing a sheet at a time can be done at the sides maybe and one piece at a time any size is easy but if its large then pressing all at once may be the go . A vacuum press is one option . I dont particularly like them but they work. Ive got a good one but prefer a screw press. Which I also have .
My favorite is the single screw doing parquetry .

Glue is important too . Steer clear of water based . If its used right it works without problems but applying a water based glue means veneers are growing in size from the second the glue goes on . And shrinking back is what it wants to do drying out . Two pack glue or poly glue with no moisture problems means this just doesnt happen .

Some pics of my Parq stuff.

This small Walnut coffee table is one .Login • Instagram

And this dining table has a few sawn timber types with a solid Oak mitred edge.
Login • Instagram

A quick sketch of what the student is thinking of doing will make it easier for us to help as there are a few ways to tackle it .
Rob

Rob...sorry about the late reply, thanks so much for the info. Lost of things to digest.

Yes, we're aiming to re-saw our own veneers that are thicker than commercially bought ones. It's turning out to be trickier than I thought. I spent a few hours trying to set up the bandsaw (it's a heap of crap)) with a new blade but it's making me curse a little. I've proposed buying another one (Laguna 18BX) so we'll see if that gets some traction. If that idea doesn't pan out, I'll start searching for someone who could do it.

Based on what you said, we ditched the piece of MDF and found some nice marine plywood that was quite cheap. I felt bad buying it because he was closing his business down.

We're still exploring how to press the veneers on but I think some cauls, MDF sheets and clamps should get us out of trouble. Time will tell. Elan, thanks for the link to Timberwood, I'll give them a call this week and see if they can suggest anything.

The idea is a table based on this sort of pattern Making a Starburst Veneer Match - Australian Wood Review. It's a little ambitious but this type of student doesn't come along often. If she can pull it off, it'll turn out quite nicely.