Thread: How to do veneering

Practical Veneering THE Theory AND Practice OF | eBay

A Manual OF Veneering Villiard Paul 0486232174 0486232174 | eBay

Practical Veneering Hayward Charles H 0237448122 0237448122 | eBay

Complete Manual OF Wood Veneering Paperback 0854420401 | eBay



Hi Denge,

start with Charles H Hayward , Practical veneering, and take it from there.

Regards Rob

Thanks Rob for taking the ime and effort to provide these links, much appreciated. I didn't think of using eBay, just looked in the local library and for online info. Have ordered the Practical Veneering book as suggested

One of the Ians here encouraged me to give veneering a go ... he made it sound simple, but I was full of trepidation.

I need not have worried. I am still a novice, but my first few projects have gone without a hitch.

I cut veneers at about +3 mm thick on the band saw, cleaning up the surface of the big bit from which the veneers are being cut on the thicknesser after each veneer is cut. They are then passed through the drum sander to get most of the saw marks removed. Then the individual veneers are book-leafed and edge glued. The veneers are taped together; be careful to get the contact as good as possible. Flip the taped veneers over, tape down, put one finger on the join from underneath to break the join open. Apply glue to the open joint (I always use PU glue for edge jointing of veneers and moisten the edges with water to speed up setting time), sit them on a flat bench (tape down) and put a piece of timber close to and either side of the joints. Then put some weights on those timbers. Half an hour later I scrape off the excess glue and run the now jointed veneers through the drum sander again to get one side perfectly flat.

These veneers are then glued to an MDF substrate. I have used clamps and cauls in the past, but recently bought a small, cheap, plastic vacuum press, and doubt I'll ever use cauls again. For the current job I am making up a vacuum press that will hold doors about 1500 mm long. I use normal PVA glue applied with a small foam roller.

One word of warning. Once you start work, don't stop until the veneers are edge glued. If you leave cut veneers sitting around for a while before edge gluing them they can warp and twist badly. This is not so much of an issue after the edge gluing is complete.

Finally, the veneered panel returns to the drum sander to ensure the finished veneer is a max of 2 mm (any bigger and the veneers will want to behave like wood again). Usually, I aim for about 1.5 mm. I have made doors and side panels for cabinets this way, and am yet to have a problem when using the vacuum press. I like the idea of 1.5 to 2 mm veneers, because if they get damaged, they can be repaired and sanded without fear of sanding through to the substrate ... more than one can say about the commercially available 0.6 mm veneers. Also, glue does not bleed through these thicker veneers.

On a recent job I intended to make frame and panel doors. However, I had only one short board that was very pretty in the NG Rosewood I bought. So, that board was turned into four veneers which were book-leafed for the doors. Very happy with the result. My first veneering job involved quarter cut Vic Ash being veneered over MDF in a diamond pattern. Thanks to Ian they turned out very well.

Essentially Ian said to me ... "Its just wood. Treat it like wood, as you normally would. Cut the veneers. Edge glue them as normal. Glue the veneers onto MDF. Edge the panel." Usually (for doors) I use about 45 mm timber to make rails and stiles which are biscuit jointed to the veneered panel after it has been cut to size. On the current job I will put the timber edges (about 20 mm wide) on the panel before glueing on the veneers, so the veneer goes all the way to the edge. In many cases the timber edges must be thick and strong enough to take screws and hinges, and this approach achieves this with a border-less finish.

Hope that helps. Perhaps Ian will look in and add his sage advice.

Thanks for this info, John, stills sounds scary to me But will have a go, only way to learn

I mostly want to try veneering out for 300 x 200 box lids

Starting with the 0.6 mm timber veneers, what tape do you use when edge joining these sheets of veneer ?

Do you need any special tools, or would a firm roller and clamping between a couple of sheets of melamine be OK, with lots of clamps?

Do you use plastic cling-wrapping on the melamine boards to prevent any gluing between veneer and the press boards ?

If I were to glue this veneer to 10mm MDF, would I need to edge glue this final board?

Finally, do you sand this final veneered board for final coating, and what sort of finish do you use?

Hoping you can help with some of these questions

Originally Posted by John Samuel

One of the Ians here encouraged me to give veneering a go ... he made it sound simple, but I was full of trepidation.

I need not have worried. I am still a novice, but my first few projects have gone without a hitch.

I cut veneers at about +3 mm thick on the band saw, cleaning up the surface of the big bit from which the veneers are being cut on the thicknesser after each veneer is cut. They are then passed through the drum sander to get most of the saw marks removed. Then the individual veneers are book-leafed and edge glued. The veneers are taped together; be careful to get the contact as good as possible. Flip the taped veneers over, tape down, put one finger on the join from underneath to break the join open. Apply glue to the open joint (I always use PU glue for edge jointing of veneers and moisten the edges with water to speed up setting time), sit them on a flat bench (tape down) and put a piece of timber close to and either side of the joints. Then put some weights on those timbers. Half an hour later I scrape off the excess glue and run the now jointed veneers through the drum sander again to get one side perfectly flat.

These veneers are then glued to an MDF substrate. I have used clamps and cauls in the past, but recently bought a small, cheap, plastic vacuum press, and doubt I'll ever use cauls again. For the current job I am making up a vacuum press that will hold doors about 1500 mm long. I use normal PVA glue applied with a small foam roller.

One word of warning. Once you start work, don't stop until the veneers are edge glued. If you leave cut veneers sitting around for a while before edge gluing them they can warp and twist badly. This is not so much of an issue after the edge gluing is complete.

Finally, the veneered panel returns to the drum sander to ensure the finished veneer is a max of 2 mm (any bigger and the veneers will want to behave like wood again). Usually, I aim for about 1.5 mm. I have made doors and side panels for cabinets this way, and am yet to have a problem when using the vacuum press. I like the idea of 1.5 to 2 mm veneers, because if they get damaged, they can be repaired and sanded without fear of sanding through to the substrate ... more than one can say about the commercially available 0.6 mm veneers. Also, glue does not bleed through these thicker veneers.

On a recent job I intended to make frame and panel doors. However, I had only one short board that was very pretty in the NG Rosewood I bought. So, that board was turned into four veneers which were book-leafed for the doors. Very happy with the result. My first veneering job involved quarter cut Vic Ash being veneered over MDF in a diamond pattern. Thanks to Ian they turned out very well.

Essentially Ian said to me ... "Its just wood. Treat it like wood, as you normally would. Cut the veneers. Edge glue them as normal. Glue the veneers onto MDF. Edge the panel." Usually (for doors) I use about 45 mm timber to make rails and stiles which are biscuit jointed to the veneered panel after it has been cut to size. On the current job I will put the timber edges (about 20 mm wide) on the panel before glueing on the veneers, so the veneer goes all the way to the edge. In many cases the timber edges must be thick and strong enough to take screws and hinges, and this approach achieves this with a border-less finish.

Hope that helps. Perhaps Ian will look in and add his sage advice.

Many thanks for the very informative info on Veneering.

May I ask just 2 questions please

What Drum Sander do you use ?

What plastic veneer press do you use and where to purchase?

Thank you

Originally Posted by John Samuel

One of the Ians here encouraged me to give veneering a go ... he made it sound simple, but I was full of trepidation.

I need not have worried. I am still a novice, but my first few projects have gone without a hitch.

snip

My first veneering job involved quarter cut Vic Ash being veneered over MDF in a diamond pattern. Thanks to Ian they turned out very well.

Essentially Ian said to me ... "Its just wood. Treat it like wood, as you normally would. Cut the veneers. Edge glue them as normal. Glue the veneers onto MDF. Edge the panel." Usually (for doors) I use about 45 mm timber to make rails and stiles which are biscuit jointed to the veneered panel after it has been cut to size. On the current job I will put the timber edges (about 20 mm wide) on the panel before glueing on the veneers, so the veneer goes all the way to the edge. In many cases the timber edges must be thick and strong enough to take screws and hinges, and this approach achieves this with a border-less finish.

Hope that helps. Perhaps Ian will look in and add his sage advice.

why thank you kind sir !!

Originally Posted by Dengue

Thanks for this info, John, stills sounds scary to me But will have a go, only way to learn

I mostly want to try veneering out for 300 x 200 box lids

Starting with the 0.6 mm timber veneers, what tape do you use when edge joining these sheets of veneer ?

Do you need any special tools, or would a firm roller and clamping between a couple of sheets of melamine be OK, with lots of clamps?

Do you use plastic cling-wrapping on the melamine boards to prevent any gluing between veneer and the press boards ?

If I were to glue this veneer to 10mm MDF, would I need to edge glue this final board?

Finally, do you sand this final veneered board for final coating, and what sort of finish do you use?

Hoping you can help with some of these questions

Hi Dengy

using 0.6mm commercial veneers is a little bit trickier than John's 3mm sawn veneers
-- yes 3mm thick stuff can be handled like sawn timber and John's method of edge jointing only differs from mine in that I would use a frame and wedges to apply a little clamping pressure across the joint

0.6mm veneers need to be treated more like heavy paper
if you are joining leaves you need to joint the mating edges -- if the joint is directly across the grain the two joining sheets need to be cut together so that the cut lines matches perfectly.
If you are going for a diamond match expect a fair amount of wastage as you line up the grain -- also turn every second sheet of veneer over to balance the light reflection.

Typically I'll assemble the leaves upside down using 3M Blue painters tape to hold them together -- I'm a price sucker at this step. I know the expensive 3M tape works, and I'm not prepared to experiment with a cheap alternative.
once the leaves are all arranged turn them right side up and put tape along and across all of the joints. You can use gummed (paper) veneer tape or blue painters tape. The Blue tape comes off easier later, but is not stable if the veneer press is heated. The veneer tape is stable in a heated press.

once all the joins are taped on the good side, turn the sheet over and remove all of the painters tape from wrong side -- your sheet is now ready to use

Don't forget to veneer the underside of the panel and for a real challenge match the top and underside veneers so the panel looks solid wood.

for a veneered panel to go inside a frame, the edges of the substrate don't need to be edged.

cling wrap or waxed kitchen paper is good to prevent glue squeeze out giving you grief.
10-20 sheets of news print is good to act as a cushion between the veneered panel and the melamine boards (3mm closed cell foam is better but much more expensive) -- the clamping pressure needs to be spread out so two or three thickness of board before the clamping caulls is good.

Glue
PVA will generally work -- just remember thin and even -- too much glue will bleed through some veneers DAMHIKT


Sanding
if your panels are only 300 x 200 sand then by hand after veneering



attached is the result of my first attempts at veneering

Hi ian, many thanks for sharing this valuable information, it is priceless !

That sunburst veneer is beautiful, well done. Just a couple of questions about it, how did you cut the stringing, and how did you do the groove for the stringing - it really sets the lid off

Originally Posted by Dengue

Hi ian, many thanks for sharing this valuable information, it is priceless !

That sunburst veneer is beautiful, well done. Just a couple of questions about it, how did you cut the stringing, and how did you do the groove for the stringing - it really sets the lid off

thank you


the stringing was part of the assembled veneer sheet.
the sunburst is 8 triangular pieces edged jointed -- took me three goes to get it right -- and held together with veneer tape on the good side
this was left oversize
the edging is cross grain -- ie the grain runs to the edge of the top.
The sides were straight forward, the curved front more involved. It's made of many pieces each about 30mm wide, cut at about 2° off a right angle and then jointed by hand -- the LN#5 on its side made this easy.
The pieces were stuck together upside down using blue tape, then turned right side up and taped again.

Then the sunburst was trimmed (right side up) using a template for the curved front and a steel straight edge for the sides
the cross banding was similarly trimmed with a separate template
the stringing was sandwiched between the sunburst and the edge banding -- getting the corners mitred just right was tricky.
the sheet was then turned right side up, all seams were sealed with veneer tape, then all the remaining blue tape on the wrong was removed

at this stage I had an oversized veneer sheet

the substrate is particle board with solid timber edging attached with PVA. I used masking tape as clamps.
once the glue was dry, the edging was brought flush with the substrate and both faces veneered with cheap veneer
once the glue was dry, both faces were sanded smooth and the veneer trimmed to the edging -- we were using a heated press so it only took about 30 mins for the glue to fully set.
only then was the show veneer and it's backing veneer glued on

The edge profile was cut with a trimmer and three different bits.

Crikey ian, you are not making it sound simple What craftmanship you have done to create this magnificent work , congratulations

The patience you must have to firstly cut and then edge glue thin 0.6mm veneer is amazing. Or was this 2mm veneer you made?

"getting the corners mitred just right was tricky" must be the understatement of the year.

Many thanks for giving us an insight as to how this magic happens, we appreciate the detailed steps.

John,

Can I ask what you class as a cheap vacuum bag setup? Are we talking one of these:

Roarockit™ Thin Air Press Kits : CARBA-TEC

I've been tempted, but have seen wildly varying reviews for these cheap solutions. Some people say they are fine for small volume veneering where a fancy vacuum pump setup cannot be justified, others say they are a piece of junk and don't work at all. This makes me suspect its down to the operator, and whether or not they read the destructions.....

Cheers

Originally Posted by Woody1

Many thanks for the very informative info on Veneering.

May I ask just 2 questions please

What Drum Sander do you use ?

What plastic veneer press do you use and where to purchase?

Thank you

I use a Performax 22/44 drum sander sourced from Gregory Machinery. It's the only drum sander I've ever owned, and I like it a lot.

The veneer press came from CarbaTec and is a Roarockit Thin Air Press. I love it to death and am in the process of making a bigger version. If I ever use cauls and clamps again, it will be too soon.

Originally Posted by Mr Brush

John,

Can I ask what you class as a cheap vacuum bag setup? Are we talking one of these:

Roarockit™ Thin Air Press Kits : CARBA-TEC

I've been tempted, but have seen wildly varying reviews for these cheap solutions. Some people say they are fine for small volume veneering where a fancy vacuum pump setup cannot be justified, others say they are a piece of junk and don't work at all. This makes me suspect its down to the operator, and whether or not they read the destructions.....

Cheers

Yes,

That is it. It is simple and easy to use. When Ian first encouraged me to try veneering on a Vic Ash unit, I used cauls and clamps. I was very happy with the result, but decided that for future jobs there had to be a better way than those fiddly %$#*@ clamps and cauls.

There is. If you buy one of these vacuum presses, do a dummy run first with a lump of MDF, just to get the feel of how it works. The first job done in the vacuum press was a door. I book-leafed two 3 mm veneers and edge glued them. Then PVA glue was applied with a small foam roller, the assembly was taped together and then slipped into the bag. The air was pumped out. I checked it every 15 minutes for the first hour or so, and every hour or two thereafter, but it held vacuum very well overnight.

The pump and valve used is nothing more than those sold to extract air from a wine bottle. So I have bought a set, picked up some vinyl from Bunings and will soon make a much bigger press.

Mate, I have nothing but good things to say about my vacuum press. It is fast and easy to use, and I have achieved good, uniform pressure across the entire surface each time I have used it. I am struggling to understand why others have had trouble ... there is so little to go wrong. If the pump works and the valve holds vacuum, what could go wrong?

Originally Posted by Dengue

Thanks for this info, John, stills sounds scary to me But will have a go, only way to learn

I mostly want to try veneering out for 300 x 200 box lids

Starting with the 0.6 mm timber veneers, what tape do you use when edge joining these sheets of veneer ?

Do you need any special tools, or would a firm roller and clamping between a couple of sheets of melamine be OK, with lots of clamps?

Do you use plastic cling-wrapping on the melamine boards to prevent any gluing between veneer and the press boards ?

If I were to glue this veneer to 10mm MDF, would I need to edge glue this final board?

Finally, do you sand this final veneered board for final coating, and what sort of finish do you use?

Hoping you can help with some of these questions

Dengue,

You would do better to talk with Ian on most of these questions. I am still a novice, but here goes.

Nearly all of my veneering is with 3 mm veneers cut in the shop. Only did one job with the 0.6 mm veneer, and for that I applied PVA glue to the substrate with a roller, let it dry, taped the veneer in place and thermoset the glue with a clothes iron. Worked like a charm.

I use ordinary masking tape, but a lot of the guys get the blue veneering tape.

For edges, either I glue a 20 odd mm wide timber piece to the mdf, sand smooth and then apply the veneer (when the veneer must go all the way to the edge), or I veneer the panel, cut it to size, and glue on timber stiles and rails. I dislike edge banding, and do not use it.

I use a vacuum press. If you use clamping panels, cauls and clamps, be very careful to shape the cauls so that they apply even pressure across the entire length of the caul. Do a few test runs before you make a panel. Having used a vacuum press, I cannot imagine why any other method would be used.

Because I use a vinyl vacuum press and PVA glue, there is no need for cling wrap etc, but if you are using panels, clamps and cauls, such protection is a good idea.

After construction is finished, I put the panel through the drum sander, and then finish sand with a ROS and by hand. Usually, I use NC lacquer as a finish.