Thread: Veneers, wth?

Originally Posted by AlexS

For me, the main reason to use ply would be its stability - providing it's good quality ply. Having said that, for most jobs I prefer to use solid timber, even if it is veneered, and design around the movement.

re: Veneer generally
I have to say that I'm kind of in the "veneer is bad" camp, personally. I like solid wood better, however, big planks of highly figured solid wood are becoming both more scarce and more expensive.

Some woods and burls are really really hard to get, or horribly expensive when you can. To experience these woods and beautiful grains at all, these days, sometimes your only option is to veneer something rather than use solid timber.

In addition, however, highly figured woods move more, and are more difficult to predict in their seasonal movement. This makes them very challenging to use in many applications in their solid form, depending on your joinery and how you are allowing for the movement to occur. The veneering process can help to minimise that problem.

re: Why use ply?
As others have said, the advantage of ply is its stability. If you veneer onto a solid timber, you run a fair risk that your solid timber will move differently to your veneer and you will split your veneer. You will then probably swear a lot when you get home and SWMBO tells you about it happening...

Because ply is both flat (usually) and relatively free of seasonal movement, it makes a good substrate. It's also fairly cheap, of course...

As always, just my opinions.

An interesting discussion, that I suspect will become more and more topical as we run out of more kinds of wood...

sCORCH

Originally Posted by AlexS

For me, the main reason to use ply would be its stability - providing it's good quality ply. Having said that, for most jobs I prefer to use solid timber, even if it is veneered, and design around the movement.

That's kinda hard, Alex, since the issue here is the movement of the substrate itself, which little can be done about other than limit the rate at which moisture can ingress/egress. Apart from using a flexible glue like contact cement there's not a lot you can do to minimise the inevitable stresses between veneer & glue & substrate. For a laminated substrate, the individual wood layers are thin (develop less power/unit change in moisture) and the wood/glue ratio is much higher (it hangs on better). So as long as the glue holds, ply substrates ought to move less. Since you are relying on a glue bond to hold the veneer on to the substrate anyway, you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb & use a laminated substrate in the hope that the sum is more stable over time.

Just one way of looking at it......

PS: Actually, Scorch, the really decent ply, the kind you SHOULD use as a veneer substrate in a high-end piece, is quite expensive. Many years ago, when it was still in its B&W phase, FWW did an article on an old-time cabinetmaker who worked for rich clients in the southern USA - he was so fussy he would only use laminated substrates he made himself, to gaurantee the quality!

Originally Posted by IanW

PS: Actually, Scorch, the really decent ply, the kind you SHOULD use as a veneer substrate in a high-end piece, is quite expensive. Many years ago, when it was still in its B&W phase, FWW did an article on an old-time cabinetmaker who worked for rich clients in the southern USA - he was so fussy he would only use laminated substrates he made himself, to gaurantee the quality!

Thanks Ian - I didn't know that one. Hell, making your own laminated substrate... there's a task I don't think I will volunteer for any time soon.

Originally Posted by IanW

Rhys - I doubt a properly made & veneered panel would be cheaper, in most cases - more work than a solid wood panel, & many veneers are not cheap!

But agree with your other reasons...
Cheers,

In some cases it would cost more, I will agree with that, especially if you are using a not so common timber...which is when the maker would opt to make it themselves using high quality ply, the noncommon timber in veneer form and a vacuum press.

But personally would only use veneered ply on door panels, which have a solid timber frame...not that glue on veneer edging stuff

Lots of good reasons to use veneer have been covered here - but I use mostly veneer and the reason can be summed up in one word - environment. I love rare, highly figured timbers, most of which come from rainforests and are fairly rare or declining. Even if I could afford to buy them, my conscience wouldnt let me, so I use veneer.

It does annoy me to see people using timbers like teak or NG Rosewood without any thought about they come from or what is destroyed getting them to your workshop.

cheers (and ducking for cover)
Arron

Originally Posted by Arron

It does annoy me to see people using timbers like teak or NG Rosewood without any thought about they come from or what is destroyed getting them to your workshop.

cheers (and ducking for cover)
Arron

I'm with you 100%. It appals me to see so many Septics showing off their 'endangered' workbenches. Why waste 3" x 3" exotic timber on legs and top for a damned workbench when home-grown Oak or pine would do?

Yeah, yeah, "If they can afford it, then why not", "Personal taste" etc. etc. I'm sorry, with de-forestation and illegal harvesting and milling ballooning, it's flagrantly irresponsible, not to mention crass, to use such large sizes of exotics in such quantities.

With every timber broker and timberyard claiming their supply has impeccable provenance, where is all the illegal timber going?

Fair point Arron and backed up by Woodwould

So a question about using veneer. You've covered the substrate with 1/4 sawn veneer (I guess is the preference ) for the face of something, is there then a veneer on end grain to match to give the full appearance of a full board of timber?

Originally Posted by Waldo

Fair point Arron and backed up by Woodwould

So a question about using veneer. You've covered the substrate with 1/4 sawn veneer (I guess is the preference ) for the face of something, is there then a veneer on end grain to match to give the full appearance of a full board of timber?

Generally, no, there isnt.

Has me thinking, now, is there money to be made offering end grain veneer

Really, there are compromises to be made taking the veneer route, and the usual lack of end grain is one of them. I console myself with the knowledge that end-grain is like dovetails, woodies appreciate them but 99% of people dont know and dont care. Of course I notice the difference immediately, but I understand that doing a good job of veneering is just as difficult and skillful as doing a good job with solid timber (actually, I think much more so) so it is still gives me pleasure when I see a quality result.

cheers
Arron

Just adding to the above, now I've had a think about it. I guess that sometimes I try to make my veneering look like solid timber, but I dont consider it absolutely necessary. Its a different art and needs a different way of thinking.

To illustrate my point, attached is a photo of a desk I've done. Its largely mdf, relatively cheap veneer and some recycled timber. I feel I cant justify doing this at the cost ($ and environmental) of solid wood.

cheers
Arron

Beautiful desk Arron.