Thread: A warning about household insurance

Timely warning. This could apply to any one working from home.

I know a case from early in the lockdown when a fairly senior lady executive was working from home and simultaneously babysitting. She tripped over a toy and suffered some slow healing damage to her back. She has had unequivocal support from her employer.

But the insurance is another issue:

• Is she covered by her home insurance - she was working,
• Is she covered by her employers insurance - she was at home and babysitting.

After a year, two different divisions of the same very large insurance company are still pointing at each other - nothing has been resolved. Many meetings, much talk, no responsibility. Apparently, they concede that there has been an insurable event but "It is their responsibility."

QBE contents.

I had a long chat to them a while back about the whole issue. There is a thread here somewhere about it.

They are 100% on board with how woodworkers work. For the small home business, they simply see it as a "well resourced hobby".

Just because one sells a few things at markets, a gallery or Etsy did not qualify as a business in their view.

There were no employees, despite having an ABN and whatnot.

They were, however, adamant they do NOT cover "business tools". If you are a tradie, then get cover for that (where tools just HAPPEN to be at home A.H.).

If one has an extensive collection (don't we all), they asked (initially) that I sent them a detailed spreadsheet each year (easily done) and document what exactly was in the studio. That fell away and now I have Specified Contents in 3 broad categories (tools, collectables and the storage hole at Storage King).

I pay $72 per month for 20k tools, 30k storage and 50k collectables. The premium was $43 when all the tools were in one place (the SK ins really bopped it up!).

I've found them completely excellent to deal with.

A few years back my wife was working as a hairdresser and setup a hair saloon at home, I mentioned it to RACV when needing our home & content Insurance, they were happy to cover with a specified note on the policy that we used one room for that purposes.

i asked them to remove that statement couple years back and noted not much change in the premium. I think they do cover tools being used for hobbies as WoodPixel mentioned, I think it’s important to tell them upfront to avoid the fine print when one make a claim!

After posting, I have got a quote off another insurance company who were happy to insure my home and contents and outbuildings in the knowledge there is woodworking activities going on here. They wont however cover any stock or my woodwork machines. I guess I would have to get separate insurance for them if I REALLY wanted to.

Originally Posted by artful bodger

After posting, I have got a quote off another insurance company who were happy to insure my home and contents and outbuildings in the knowledge there is woodworking activities going on here. They wont however cover any stock or my woodwork machines. I guess I would have to get separate insurance for them if I REALLY wanted to.

Timely thread as our home & contents insurance is falling due shortly. We have been with Suncorp for the majority of our 40+ years of marriage except for the odd ear here & there "to keep the ba$tards honest." Last year I again raised the wood turning / working hobby v a potential interpretation of them classifying it as a "business" and received an email confirming that we are covered for tools and machines used in my hobby. When it comes time to make a claim we will find out I guess.

My recommendation is to get written confirmation of any interpretation of the policy as it applies in your circumstances.

Another option is the VWA for insurance cover for public / product liability insurances and they state that their broker also offers Workshop/Studio, Building, Equipment and Contents insurance cover.

Insurance — Victorian Woodworkers Association | The leading woodcraft guild in Victoria (vwa.org.au)

When I was operating a business from home my insurance company made allowance for same (Suncorp) and adjusted the premium and PDS accordingly, I am now with Apia (Suncorp) as I no longer run a business.
The reason they do this is because in insurance terms, business and home insurance are two very different entities.

Lets set a level of expectations.
1 ~ The insurance company is not your friend, nor will they ever be.
2 ~ The insurance company is exceptionally good at collecting premium dollars.
3 ~ The insurance company is very adept at using exclusions to deny claims.
4 ~ The insurance company is very good at encouraging loyalty but considers loyalty as little more than loo paper.

I have a health care savings account. Basically it was established by the company I worked for before retirement. Before involuntary retirement all the company cared about was cost control as revenue just walked in the front door. (Don't go there.) Knowing what they could do, they dumped the health care saving account off to an insurance company and not being charged with a felony. For me, making a claim, if you can call it that, on my money to pay insurance premiums was as close to H*** as I ever want to get. This processing company also acted as the selling agent for third party actual insurance companies. (Can you spell collusion?)

The company says that the health care saving account can only be used for premiums. As far as I'm concerned that is cool. I had been using an insurance company for dental care insurance, at least 10 years. I had been paying the premium annually for myself and wife. Suddenly the poop starts with denied claims. Because both of us had to have separate policies, it was write two checks. I understand insurance company accounting systems. But the company holding my health care savings money is 'why are there two policies'. OK you effing idiots here are copies of the checks that were written for myself and wife. To help understand what I am dealing with, the US Social Security system charges retirees about $150 a month for a portion of our health care. The holding company of my health care savings refunds that to me for both of us or $300 monthly. In conversations with my CPA, we both feel that they shouldn't be doing that. But as he suggests, don't change anything.

OK, the next year, 'How do we know that the premium payments are for health care insurance'? The insurance gives me a letter saying that the premium for both of us is for Dental coverage. Still denied. I escalated and got to a supervisor. I screamed and yelled at a supervisor telling him that the only people that I hated more than insurance companies were lawyers and that the insurance company was lucky in that respect. They paid.

The sad part of all of this is that the insurance company is reasonably good, as they cover what they are contracted to do with out any male bovine excrement. The people at the dentist's office tell me not to change as they are good to work with.

Honest question - WHY is the USA so bad with these things?

On Reddit the horror stories are unending. Absolute tyranny. Absolute scumbaggery and absolute theft.

As an Aussie, maybe an ignorant one, but I have NEVER heard stories to this degree of .... bastardry... like this here.

Those that even get close, rare exceptions for genuinely strange stuff*, are on the ABC for a single day before the companies permanently change their policies.

* Here is a good example: Insurance giant GIO pursues Horsham couple for almost $78,000 over fire in rental property - ABC News


I simply cannot fathom why the USA seeks to retain a system that is blatantly hostile to 95% of the population. The "anti-socialism" stance is held by those who are MOST harmed by this very system.

As I said, mindboggling and almost inconceivable.

I really thought to add, that I'm a long term QBE client for car and contents policies.

I've found them forthright, approachable, open and without guile.

I've never been the fault of an accident, but I've had a few people boop me and claims/processing has/have never been a trauma. All straight forward and BS free.


When I've discussed my studio with them, the first time, they had a bit of a hard time understanding where I was coming from. They took lots of notes, I talked with a super, they went away and came back with a few questions..... Overall, in the end, it was a "very well resourced hobby" and they simply made a note on the policy for tools, gear and whatnot.

They were SPECIFIC in they wouldn't cover the timbers in the case of a fire! I didn't have a problem with that proviso!

Originally Posted by rrich

Lets set a level of expectations.
1 ~ The insurance company is not your friend, nor will they ever be.
2 ~ The insurance company is exceptionally good at collecting premium dollars.
3 ~ The insurance company is very adept at using exclusions to deny claims.
4 ~ The insurance company is very good at encouraging loyalty but considers loyalty as little more than loo paper.

All very true statements! Talk to any home owner affected by TC's Larry, Yasi, Debbie, Joy,........ , the 2019 Townsville Floods (that affected only a small area of the region but almost 100% of properties in that area) about multiple visits by assessors, ambit claim bargaining, delays, incomplete repairs, shoddy "blow in" tradesmen, ....... then the "you were under insured" so you foot the rest of the bill etc.

I'm in another situation where our insurer through automatic "cpi adjustment" of the insured value forces us into an "over insured" situation (far more than the current value of home and land) as their ratcheting 10% pa "cpi adjustment" bears no real world equivalence to actually local building costs or to "official cpi" rates. Our only escape is to pay a quantity surveyor to calculate "replacement value" each year or to obtain three quotes from local builders at each renewal. Then we get hit with a "premium increase" on the "over insured" value - a double whammy. But, I should not complain at least we can re-insure as many have been refused cover by their current insurer as many insurers exit the North Queensland market.

I was working for DEC at the time. (Digital Equipment Corporation) In those days $$$$ was the big deal in health insurance. Companies typically set the eligible services and put up the extra funds to cover expenses beyond what premiums covered. And I almost got fired over this one.

My wife had female surgery and we were left holding the bag for over a couple of grand. Then the HR types held their annual meeting that was supposed to justify their jobs. The HR type goes on about the health insurance. Supposed to cover 85% of doctor fees and 100% of hospital fees. I said not true, only 75%. HR type comes unglued.

I explain - Insurance company surveys doctors in the area as to costs and takes 90% of the average as the "Reasonable and Customary" fee. Then 85% of the R&C. HR type is further unglued. I say if I use an average doctor, I'm down 10% and then I'm down another 15% based upon what they pay. HR type is now glaring at me. So I shut up. After the meeting 6 or 8 people are doing the W*T*F with me. HR type grabs my arm saying, "In my office NOW!". He and I went round and round for a good 15 minutes. HR type says, "Either shut up and agree to what I say or you will be working somewhere else." Yeah, within a year I was happily working somewhere else. And then I think in 8 years HR type was involuntarily working somewhere else as DEC was acquired by HP.

Which brings up, 'Have you ever encountered a good HR type? As in one that was trustworthy.' In over 40 years, just two.

Ha! I'm old enough to remember DEC, Compaq and I even worked at Data General.

To the point though on HR types and completely hijacking this thread, SWMBO works in HR. I love her to bits even when she's trying to wring the last drop out of a dry towel.

Cheers

Bryan

Brian,
I haven't even heard the words "Data General" in over 25 years. When I was with DEC we had a large aerospace customer that had a few Data General systems. They used those systems to beat the DEC people up. They would always drop 'Westboro' when talking about DEC headquarters. It got tiresome but we just smiled and went on then sold the aerospace firm a lot of computers.

Originally Posted by artful bodger

If anyone here uses an insurance company that will insure their home and outbuildings in the knowledge that there is a business (cottage industry) going on there then I would be very interested to know which insurance company you are with.

We use an insurance broker in Perth by the name of Cowden's. We run our business (non woodworking) from home, and they have no issue with giving us business, and home and contents insurance each year.

Another "trap" to fall into with home and contents insurance - most people inadvertently take out or get sold a "defined events" policy... it's the sort that says "We will cover you if...".

These policies are the sort you hear horror stories about on the news "We have insurance, but they won't pay"... invariably, something happens that is not covered (or, they find a way to define the event as something that isn't covered).

The types of policies that are *NOT* defined event policies are dearer, but at least you can sleep at night.