Thread: West System or Techniglue?

For that amount of likely usage, I would use Techniglue.

West/Botecote is primarily for epoxy encapsulation and its use as a glue is a secondary aspect where the same epoxy is being used for the primary purpose (although it does glue very well).

Dave,
I've used both Techniglue and Botecote epoxy. For smaller jobs you can't beat Techniglue the gel is easier to measure, mix and apply and for most work ie joints and laminating does not seem to need a filler (qualified with depending on application).

As far as creep my observation is there is little difference between the two types they both can cause some grief and precautions need to be taken.

Cleanup is an issue, when it sets it is very difficult to remove so pre finishing helps if squeeze out is unavoidable get to it within 24hrs while it is still a little cheesy.

Good stuff, works well on my poor joints

Cheers
Mike

I'd go with the Techniglue, as Jeremy says the West is primarily for epoxy encapsulation and unless you add some microfibres to the epoxy it is too brittle on its own, just ask thumbsucker about his small bench that he had.

I've never used used the west system one, but I find the Techniglue good for small jobs, I use plastic teaspoons to measure the parts and a plastic knife to spread the glue onto the job (throw them in the bin when finished), no mess with the gel, love it.
Have never had a problem with creep

I would recommend Techniglue for laminating, Titebond 3 for small projects and I use West for filling holes in flat surfaces because it is clear.
All good products.
regards

Wow! That's got to be the single most conclusive response I've ever received on any subject around here!

I've seen first hand what happened the TS's bench, though my application is very different.

I have TB Original for the basics and TB3 for the serious stuff already.

Techniglue it is, cheers folks.

Dave.

I was just at Carbatec to pick-up some Techniglue and no less than three customers expressed to me their joy with this product. One fella was telling me that he uses this for creating articles from multiple timbers for turning and not a one has delaminated.

The first test will be a laminated plane made from Spotted Gum.

I've got megaepoxy. Much cheaper than west system and seems to work fine.

where do you get that from Jake?
and what's it cost?

Got the idea from a bloke here on this site.
http://www.megapoxy.com/megapoxy69.htm

Don't remember what I paid for it exactly. Just remember thinking it was a lot cheaper at the time. Maybe $250 for 20L. don't quote me. Ratio's 1:1 though.

Can email them for a price in that link there if anyones interested.

I'd say the west systems is better. We have it at work. Its 2:1. And the megaepoxys 1:1. But whether or not its an unnecessary improvement is another thing.

Hello,

I have been mixing my own epoxy adhesives for some years now. That way it becomes most certainly the cheapest all the way everywhere in the world.

There is practically no need to know anything about epoxy chemistry if you stick with base resins and easy additives and cure it with single curing agents. These resins, adducts and curing agents are today a bit like Lego bricks to use. For everyone, that is.

I have mainly used Hexion epoxies, adducts and curatives. It's because I know a company who does industrial flooring and makes their own compounds, and they use Hexion products. I have used some Dow and Air Products stuff, too, but not that much. No particular other reason than just this contact I currently have and what I get from them.

Last time I bought 11 kg batch including bisphenol A/F blend, some additive and suitable amount of curative. All this together took about 60 euros which is about 100 AUD. I'll be using that lot for next couple of years.

I got contact with that flooring company via the tradehouse importing Hexion products to Finland. The tradehouse representative was not willing to sell smaller amounts to a private customer, but suggested some companies I could ask. The first one I tried was this particular flooring enterprise. I called them and they said ok. They charged not much more than a price per tonne is in the world today, and still made some profit. Not bad.

I wonder if the same could be done thereabouts, too? Contacting tradehouse and asking for epoxy users to get contact with?

I try to attach this Excel spreadsheet file including template to make mixing ratio calculations. I just made it with OpenOffice, checked it out, and it seems to compute correctly. It is saved in .xls format.

sumu

Seems to be that although xls is accepted as attachement format, it does not come through?

Lets try again

Edit: Now it popped up, cool. Check it out if it works, just to be sure.

Some additional stuff:

This spreadsheet is for formulating different liquid epoxy systems using industrial liquid epoxy base resins and liquid curing agents. It calculates applicable stoichiometric phr value for curing agent, to be mixed with 100 phr of base resin or resin blend.

Calculations are based on known chemical reactivity and their nominal stoichiometry between epoxy resins, adducts and curing agents. This spreadsheet uses EEW values for epoxy resins, and AHEW values for curing agents. ( A note: epoxy resin EGC values do not apply).

However, this spreadsheet does not predict the usability of resulting cured epoxies. For example: The compatibility and synergy factors between components are not covered here, only nominal ideal mixing ratio based on announced chemical values. Also it does not predict curability or curing conditions of designed epoxy system. These all are factors that have to be examined with other methods.

It is a good workshop practice to make a small test batch of mixture to see what happens.

For very critical applications (aeromotive etc.) the true values for a lot must be chemically analyzed using precision laboratory methods. It is highly recommended to use certified epoxy system in critical applications.


A couple of things I have found useful in making my own epoxies:

You do not need to know a single thing about chemistry. It is enough if you can measure right amounts of liquids in same jar and mix them very well.

You need a reasonably good scale, this spreadsheet and values from the TDS or from the sides of the canisters. Some common sense is good to have, too. I have a kitchen scale, measures amounts up to 500g with +/-1g accuracy which seems to be ok.

Column drill is the best of mixers. Some kind of rotor attached tightly in the end of a rod will do. RPM recommendation would be under 1000 rpm, like 200...500 rpm. Too fast mixing increases friction and heats up the resin and decreases pot life. Hold the jar in your hands and move it to bring the running rotor everywhere in the jar. Sweep sides and bottom thoroughly. 200g batch takes about a minute or so to mix.

Epoxy resin EEW is usually announced as a range, for example EEW = 185-192. Use the average value for calculations, here EEW = 188,5.

Room temp curing agents do not provide the best strength for cured epoxy, but will give usually way more than enough for most woodworking applications.

It is often a good idea to purchase bisphenol A/F blends. These will not crystallize that easily in storage (crystalline = has opacity, “milky” looks, does not cure properly)

If curing is needed at low temperature or humid or underwater conditions, go for these: http://www.resins.com/resins/ap/EPI-...ic_Amines.html

Epikote 828 viscosity makes it syrupish, Epikote 246 is much more flowing kind. Both will make good clear epoxy with suitable low-blushing curative.

A Hexion product called Heloxy 505 is very good surface wetter and cuts viscosity, too. When cured it provides flexibility, toughness and water resistivity. 505 is normally added as 5-30 phr in resin side with base resins. It slows down curing a bit.

Adding some Hexion Epikote 8111 in the resin side will accelerate curing with amine curatives. It's true EEW is about 140 because of acrylic group in it. When Epikote 8111 is used alone with suitable reactive aliphatic amine, curing times at room temp will decrease down to one-minute region. 8111 is sensitive to elevated heat in storage conditions.

Always consider how warm conditions there are. 10 Celsius degrees rise in temperature will sometimes shorten the pot life in half.

It is probable that these documents and web sites will exist in the future as well:
http://epoxy.dow.com/epoxy/tech/index.htm
http://www.resins.com/resins/ap/productnames.html
http://www.resins.com/resins/eu/pdf/HEX_551_Epikote.pdf

"Stoichiometry" denotes simply equal amount of chemical reactivity (reactive chemical groups) on both resin and curative sides. It is therefore basically a theoretical idealization, although based on true measured reactivity values of resins and curatives.
Experimentally it has been found that a precise stoichiometric balance does not always produce best properties for a cured epoxy, but it is not far from that, either.

sumu

I understood that WEST meant "Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique". I have used a gallon of it to put a sheet of fibreglass on a cedar strip canoe, and for that it works well, soaks through and bonds well. But it is runny and you need to have some way to keep it on the wood, like a sheet of fibreglass. For that technique you paint it on the surface.

I have also used it with fillers to fill holes in turnings, but I did not like it much because it is so runny.