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  1. #1
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    Default Wood Screws & Drill Bits for Newbie

    Hey everyone,

    Just joined these forums as I am looking at doing a bit of woodwork on the weekends for simply projects just for a bit of a hobby so looking forward to going through all the info here.

    I am knocking up just a basic bench in my garage out of some pine I picked up cheap and was after some advice.

    The pieces are 70 x 35 and I was wondering a) what type of screws i need and b) how big these screws should be?

    The pieces will just be joined via butt joint so obviously would need to be at least 35mm to go through the first piece, however how long should the screw be to go through the other piece? I was just going to pick up some screws at bunnings but when I got there the selection was outrageous, and help was nowhere to be found on a busy weekend.

    If anyone could provide a link to what I would be after that would be great!

    I am also going to pick up a drill and will need some drill bits - is there any reason to go for metric or imperial? I was going to just pick up the below - would they be fine?

    https://www.bunnings.com.au/sutton-t...t-set_p6360602

    Thanks for the help everyone

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
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    Montmorency Victoria
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    554

    Default

    Hi Fergy
    Can you please clarify by what you mean by butt joints, because if you are thinking about fixing using a screw into the endgrain then I have doubts that it would be a very sturdy bench. Screws work best when they attach through longgrain.

    Have you considered using half lap joints ... glue and screw. A basic joint but can be strong.

    When drilling for a screw (say a 4mm wide screw) the top board should let the screw pass through with a tight fit but one that does not engage the thread... so use a 4mm bit. The wood that it is entering should be drilled so that the treads of the screw do bite into the sides of that hole ... so I would use a 2mm bit for that.

    The reason holes are drilled is to avoid the wood splitting when the screws are being tightened. Most woodworkers also use a countersink bit ... they give a larger contact surface for the screw head (see below why this is important)

    It is really the pressure from the head of the screw on the first piece and the bite of the thread in the second piece that holds the boards together. If you used a 2mm bit on both pieces then the screw head would press into the top piece and stop turning even though the bottom piece may not be fully drawn up to the top piece. Oh, and don't put multiple screws close down the same wood grain line ... they will cause the wood to split ... stager them like a triangle.

    Suttons are good bits and metric is the most used for Oz dimensions for screws, bolts, etc.

    There is probably a scientific algorithm to calculate the screw size and tread angle (spacing) ... generally the practice is to use fine threads for hardwood and courser threads for softwood (such as pine, and very course threads for chip board and MDF. Bunnings have colour coded packs based on application.

    SO for joining a 70x35 pine I would advise a half lap joint (or bridle joint even better) with 3 or 4 screws that are 10 gauge screws of 30mm length and glued. (length of countersink head screws includes the head). A 10 gauge screw has a thickness of 4.8mm (so a 5mm top board hole (countersunk) and a 3.0mm lower board hole. I generally like to have the screw length double the thickness of the top board (but this is not always possible). A bit of soap or wax on the screw helps greatly in screwing down.

    Regards

    Rob

  4. #3
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    Default

    Thanks for your reply Rob. I may have the wrong terminology. Basically by Butt joint I just meant get the two length pieces of the top and put the depth piece in between them and then screw through the length piece into the end of the depth piece......if that makes any sense lol. I did think of doing a half lap joint but currently have no tools so was just trying to knock the bench up quick and simple and maybe upgrade at a later date to something a bit more technical. I've also had all my pieces cut to size so just going to knock these together as easy as possible for now. So if I was just to put these together at the ends what length would the screw then need to be? something like 70mm?

  5. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergy1987 View Post
    Thanks for your reply Rob. I may have the wrong terminology. Basically by Butt joint I just meant get the two length pieces of the top and put the depth piece in between them and then screw through the length piece into the end of the depth piece......if that makes any sense lol. I did think of doing a half lap joint but currently have no tools so was just trying to knock the bench up quick and simple and maybe upgrade at a later date to something a bit more technical. I've also had all my pieces cut to size so just going to knock these together as easy as possible for now. So if I was just to put these together at the ends what length would the screw then need to be? something like 70mm?
    Hmmmmm ..... that is not a strong joint ..... use 70mm bugle screws. And cut some 18mm ply into a 250 x 250 triangle and put that on the end face of the joint for further bracing. ...... on both top and bottom rail

    good luck

    Rob

  6. #5
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    Default

    hmm now im concerned about my approach. May need to look at doing half lap joints. I just worry that with a half lap the 35mm thickness is not enough.

  7. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tahlee View Post
    Hmmmmm ..... that is not a strong joint
    Rob is right about it not being a strong joint however if you are going to put a piece of ply on top that should provide the lateral stiffness necessary. As a beginners bench it's probably ok. Once you get the hang of working with wood you will probably aspire to build something a bit more permanent.

    The more important question would be how are you attaching the legs for the bench, or did i miss something? Pictures always help to convey your ideas better than words ever will.

    Best of luck with your plans.

  8. #7
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    Default

    Yeah it was really just to give me a surface to work with to start and eventually would get something a bit better once I get the hang of it. Was thinking of just slapping a sheet of ply on it and was going to also screw some braces in the middle of the frame to keep it more rigid.......as for the legs I was going to go with the same approach lol - put them in the corner of the joint of the benchtop frame and screw them in. then screw in a brace across the legs on each side and a another brace across the length of the bench at the back connecting the legs on each side.....I didn't really have any intention of putting any weight or anything on the bench so didn't really consider the need for strength of joints because it was really just going to be a flat surface for sawing, chiselling and tinkering....freaking out :P - might try my approach and if it all goes pear shaped try again with more emphasis on strengthening joints.

  9. #8
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    On the matter of design, most simple workshop tables use a system whereby the bottom and top rails (4 long rails and 4 side rails in total) are screwed directly to the legs. The legs can be made 70mm square by glue and screw two 35 x70 together.

    The legs are then stepped, say 20mm deep and 70 long, to take the rails. To limit racking (sideway movement) you could use the ply triangles on the rear legs joints or a cross brace between the right and left rear legs half lapped if you like.

    the top could be as simple as 2 layers of 18mm ply or more pine lengths

    regards

    Rob

  10. #9
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    Welcome to the forum Fergy.

  11. #10
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    Hi Fergy

    the basic rule of thumb with screws or nails is 1/3 of the fastener length in the top piece, and 2/3s in the anchor piece.
    Rob covered the issue of clearance holes in the top section, and a hole the diameter of the base of the screw thread in the anchor piece.

    The screws I use most often for "rough" construction are size 8 and 38 or 50 mm long.

    for a quick, easy to construct bench, you can use triangular stiffeners and square frames. each corner on this frame is secured with 6, #8 screws. Driven without any pre-drilling because it's pine.
    Wood Screws & Drill Bits for Newbie-dsc05489-jpg

    and here is the finished bench
    Wood Screws & Drill Bits for Newbie-dsc05498-jpg

    The top is 5/8 (16 mm ply) screwed to 2, 4x2 runners.

    It;s plenty rigid enough to use for hand planing.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  12. #11
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    Default

    In post #2, Rob is correct that screwing into end grain is extremely weak. But if you prefer the appearance of a butt joint, embed some dowels near the end, and anchor the screws into the dowels. Thus the connection is actually through long grain.

    Cheers,
    Joe
    Of course truth is stranger than fiction.
    Fiction has to make sense. - Mark Twain

  13. #12
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    Default

    Hi Fergy and welcome to the forums.

    There is some good advice above and ian's bench looks pretty good to me as a starting point.

    However, there is an even easier way to start with a workable and flexible bench.. It is to purchase two sturdy timber sawhorses and drop a plank on top. Large hardware stores sell laminated panels that are intended for kitchen or other bench-tops, usually 30 to 40 mm thick. buy one or two of those and place them on the sawhorses and you have a stable working surface. If you need to be able to stow it away then use G-clamps or F-clamps to hold the benchtop in place. if you can leave it assembled then screw through from underneath the sawhorse rail into the bench-top slab. The top rail of a sawhorse is usually about 40 mm from memory, and if the bench-top is 40 mm then use a 60 or 65 mm self-drilling bugle head screw (hex drive). Your drill will need some grunt to drive it and you may need to back it out and go back in the same hole a couple of times depending on the timber, but once it seats it will hold very firm.

  14. #13
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    Default Forgot

    I forgot to say that such a work surface is only to get you started in woodwork. If you find that you wish to continue you will eventually want to build yourself a really good workbench as the standard ones for sale do not seem to be very impressive on the whole. There is an interesting book by Christopher SchwarzThe Workbench Design Book a USA woodworker and author with a passion for workbenches. You can buy it from Book Depository in the UK with free shipping. Very readable and informative - probably somewhat overwhelming at first, but great information to get you thinking.

    If you are just starting out in woodwork I also encourage you to get some tuition from an experienced woodworker or school. It is easy to buy a lot of garbage tools and waste a lot of money and time unless you learn some skills. Once you have the skills you will find woodwork addictive and very satisfying (or at least that's my experience). Here in Brisbane there are a number of good woodworking teachers, depending on what part of this geographically large city you are from. Th RM School of woodworking operates from the Woodturners Society hut in Greenslopes, Damon Fauser (spelling uncertain) is in Darra, Richard Vaughan in Sumner Park, Robert Howard in West End to name a few. PM me if you want some more information on this.

    Good luck and happy woodworking.

    David
    Last edited by Xanthorrhoeas; 6th February 2017 at 06:19 PM. Reason: more info

  15. #14
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    Cheers for all the info guys.

    Just one last piece of advice regarding the top. Just looking at putting a sheet of ply on. The bench is 1200W x 500D. What thickness sheet would be sufficient?

  16. #15
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    Coming in a bit late here, but there are several sets of free plans on line for basic, beginners work benches that use very basic joinery, ply or MDF for the top and such. A quick Google search will bring up a bunch of hits, some good, some indifferent.

    Here are couple of links for some sites that I have found to be reliable sources (no sign up) and you can specify 'free' plans or 'pay for' plans:

    Woodworking Plans, Projects, Patterns and Resourceful Information at WoodworkersWorkshop®
    Free Woodworking Plans On The Internet !

    You can also check out some magazine web sites but most want to register for their free newsletter. e.g
    Woodworking Projects, Plans, Techniques, Tools, Supplies | Popular Woodworking Magazine

    You can make the support structure a lot stronger if you double up the timber in the legs - there should be some examples of this in the free plans links - you can then make 'fake' half laps or through mortises by carefully spacing the pieces you glue on.

    If your pine is 'treated pine' as most construction timber is these days you should get galvanised or other specially treated screws as most wood treatments also eat ordinary screws for breakfast.

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