Thread: New Woodworker shop fitout (tablesaw, jointer/thicknesser & dust extraction)

Originally Posted by aercam

Hi every one
I’m a new woodworker from Perth who is interested in making some solid wooden furniture like desks, bookcases, coffee tables etc. as a hobby for my own use. I plan to work out of my two car garage, which usually houses one car.



To start with I’m planning to do Steve Ramsey’s Weekend Woodworker course. I have most of the tools I’ll need but could use some advice on some of the bigger items.



1. A tablesaw
I have a healthy fear of what this tool can do if not properly respected. I plan to use push sticks or grippers but would like the peace of mind of sawstop technology.

I'm in a similar situation and I ended up with the totally sacrilegious thought of skipping the table saw.

I have spent hours thinking of all the cuts I want to make and realised that in order to replace a table saw I need as a minimium a large-ish band saw for narrow rip cuts, a proper router table for things like finger joints and dados/rebates, a track saw for cutting down sheets and various long cuts, and a sliding mitre saw for most cross cuts. And sometimes I might need to use hand tools, which I want to do anyway.

The main problem is that most of these tools are collectively slower (for the same things) than the table saw, but I don't mind that, I don't want to churn out volumes of the same things, I'm just making stuff for myself and the house.

On the other hand the advantage is that these tools also do a bunch of other things a table saw can't do (or is not really the recommended tool for), and so I will probably end up buying them anyway (the ones I don't already have).

Why I want to ditch the table saw? Safety is one thing, or to put it better my perception of safety. I know I can hurt myself badly even with a little chisel if I'm not careful and 100% present in the moment. But there's something about using a table saw particularly that just doesn't agree with the way my brain works. I know I would never feel comfortable using one, and being an amateur the only thing that matters to me is feeling comfortable and good about what I do. And no, relying on a sawstop sensor doesn't help me enough in that direction.

The other thing is footprint. Like I said I'll probably end up getting all the other stuff anyway, and a table saw is never really just a table saw, you have an outfeed table, sleds, jigs, a place to store the jigs, and before you know it you have built your whole space around the table saw. I'd really like to have a proper woodworking bench in that particular spot.

So yeah, I knew that a tiny shop means I'd have to sacrifice a few things, and I made my choice what to sacrifice. I really want to avoid the overlap of tools that do the same things, and if it means I'm not getting the most efficient tool then so be it.

Thanks for listening, I hope I'm not taking over your thread with irrelevant thoughts that I just wanted to share and bounce off people

Big thanks to BobL for all the DC research and info.

Cheers
SP

Aercam,
If you get set up to your satisfaction, do you envisage doing any woodwork elsewhere in a well set up shop?

Just a lead to my tale, before I had much gear of my own, I used to have access to a couple of different well fitted out shops, and developed in my mind a viable set of approach limits for table saw blades, which I never intruded into. In particular I had a secure spot to move my hand to at the end of a cut to ensure that it was well clear of the blade while it slowed and stopped. Then I got a job where there was a sliding panel saw with scribing blade right where I had I trained myself to be "safe" on the other saws. For about 6 months I had to be very aware of what my hand was doing at the end of a cut in order to avoid placing it on the spinning scribe blade.

While not disputing the potential for added safety with the Sawstop system, I see a potential danger also in becoming extremely adapted to the safety that it offers then using a different machine elsewhere that lacks the protection feature, and possibly getting caught out by an inadvertent close approach/contact with the blade. The safest solution with the Sawstop would be to train yourself to use the machine as though the protection system was not there and always stay at least 100mm from the blade in all three directions. That way you should not trigger the protection mechanism, never have to buy replacement cartridges and blades, and still be able to safely apply muscle memory in the event that you end up using different machines elsewhere.

Thanks Spyro.

Originally Posted by Spyro

ter my perception of safety. I know I can hurt myself badly even with a little chisel if I'm not careful and 100% present in the moment. But there's something about using a table saw particularly that just doesn't agree with the way my brain works. I know I would never feel comfortable using one, and being an amateur the only thing that matters to me is feeling comfortable and good about what I do. And no, relying on a sawstop sensor doesn't help me enough in that direction.

I agree, only about 50% of TS accidents can be prevented using a SS, so completely relying on the SS to prevent ALL TS accidents is somewhat misguided.

It's interesting to see the hard stats behind BS and TS accidents.
About 20% of woodworker surveys have had some sort of accident using a TS while only about 5% have had an accident using a BS
Most of this is because there are simply more TS in use out there than BS,
The other thing to consider is the accident rate per our of exposure/use where TS users suffer about 1/4 the number of accidents per hour of use compared to BS users.
BS users are also likely to suffer their first injury on a BS more than 10 times sooner than using a TS.

Perception of safety is important - if you think something is dangerous then this may even add to its danger. When using potentially dangerous tools and equipment we should learn how use it to within its limitations and apply the appropriate levels of respect. However, if you are scared of using a machine then you should not use it initially without guidance and support until you are no longer scared of it. The TS in my shed is still the tool I have most respect for, more so even than my120cc chainsaw with its 60" bar and chain that I use for Chainsaw milling, but the BS also commands considerable respect - that thing has torn things out of my hands faster than I could blink and every time it has done this has deepened my respect for it.

The (somewhat over engineered) TS blade guard with overhead dust collection I made and mounted on my TS last year has done much more for keeping my hands away from the blade than I thought it would since it makes it very difficult to get my hands close enough to be cut.

With this guard in place I have had to relearn how to use the TS and now my hands are usually on the mitre slide, or using a push stick.
TSguard2.jpg


Oh yea and the dust collection sucks.
Gates.jpg

Originally Posted by BobL

It's interesting to see the hard stats behind BS and TS accidents.
About 20% of woodworker surveys have had some sort of accident using a TS while only about 5% have had an accident using a BS
Most of this is because there are simply more TS in use out there than BS,
The other thing to consider is the accident rate per our of exposure/use where TS users suffer about 1/4 the number of accidents per hour of use compared to BS users.
BS users are also likely to suffer their first injury on a BS more than 10 times sooner than using a TS.

That's interesting. I don't know why the TS seems less safe to me, pushing against a spinning blade that is facing me seemed like a bad idea the first time I did it and it didn't get any better over time.

With the BS it's the same principle, blade towards me, but for some reason it seems more controllable. Maybe it's the fact that if something went wrong on the TS I'd also have to fight the gravity pulling me towards the blade as I'm leaning over it. Or the fact that the blade on the BS is pushing towards the table instead of towards me. I don't know, I can't justify it scientifically, like I said it's a perception for me.

With most everything else my brain says "ok, just be careful and go through your checklist", with the TS it just says "nope".

If we ask the average Joe which is safer by just looking at it, the usually smaller teeth on a BS tend to make them say the BS, but I've seen a bloke cut his thumb off with a BS. He was talking 9 to the dozen and not paying attention and the thumb came off in an absolute blink.

It would be interesting to measure the accident rate of new BS and TS users after they had spent some time cutting up meaty bones wth these machines. I cut up frozen chicken frames and beef and kangaroo meaty bones with the BS every week for our dogs and even a large beef bone is a doddle to cut with a 6TPI blade. The beef tallow seems to keep the rust down on the table top as well.

how is the DC with those chicken feathers


paying attention is pretty important, otherwise you can die just commuting to work.

I 'feel' safer using the BS than the TABLE Saw but I put my fingers closer to the blade on the BS. So possibly this brings the risk to approx equal. Hopefully I never find out.

Don't under estimate the risk to your fingers on the jointer. Something I only learnt from experienced woodworkers.

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Originally Posted by DaveVman

I 'feel' safer using the BS than the TABLE Saw but I put my fingers closer to the blade on the BS. So possibly this brings the risk to approx equal.

Unlikely, based on the stats you are at greater risk than ever of injuring yourself.

At the mens shed I suggested we draw/paint/scratch a line on the machine tables 100 mm away from BS and TS blades and teach members never put their fingers inside that space. Instead they should of course learn to use push sticks and jigs.
Of course I got laughed at and nothing has happened about this.
"Hopefully nothing will happen" wasn't good enough for me - another reason I no longer supervise there.

Yeah know all about the jointer, with 5mm missing off the end of my LH ring finger - wasn't using a push stick was I!

Oh yes. I hope no one follows my example. I have a long way to go on safety.

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