Thread: buyer beware. iida tool declares bankruptcy. No tool. No refund.

If that was his Ebay store (Kanamonoya71), I twice won auctions for chisels 4-5yrs ago and he just never sent them. After a number of emails he just refunded me each time, the stock photos he used were always the same?

that was him. I don't know if it was so much that the listings were just reposted as that there's a lot more unsellable stock in japan than people like to admit, and I think it doesn't turn out well for the maker.

ogata's blades and subblades from alex gilmore were $265 to me. I bought a pair, and alex funds his trips to japan plus profit, so he probably just got blades ogata couldn't get rid of.

Then at some point, there was a rumor that ogata retired, and maybe he did or maybe it was just a story, but Iida and japan woodworker here both got enough to sell them for a while (they may still be up on both sites). Suddenly, iida's ogata pair with a dai was $500. Then japan woodworker listed them and said they bought "all that remained, so you couldn't get them anywhere else" (just completely ignoring that a google search would direct you to the listings at iidas).

So, what did iida do? He took his page down temporarily for "upgrade" or something like that and since japan woodworker listed the planes with some nonsense woo for $780 or something, Iida put his up to match.

I'm speculating here, but I think the buyers and Ogata both lose out on something like this.

At least you got your money back. it wasn't uncommon for me to get something economy air (should take about a week) 45 days after an auction, and I guess at the time, that was probably the length of the guarantee period for ebay - that included the marking gauges that were quickly made with a cheap blade after the actual listings touted the blade itself more than the gauge.


One never knows the circumstances, though - what causes a guy to sell remaining stock that may have been a song for $800, and then turn around and dump nakano planes on ebay with a paulownia box and inomoto dai for $175. it could've been one was wish, and the other was done in need.

Once I found yahoo japan, I stopped buying new tools from dealers who speak English. when there are older makers' old stock that show up, they're often $100 for a sublime blade and subblade.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I would imagine if something goes sideways, he could very well put off a buyer long enough to avoid the chargeback or dispute resolution periods.

I had an experience with another well known eBay seller of natural waterstones and knives out of Japan that had that down to a fine art. I returned a waterstone that was IMO* incorrectly graded, but it was never delivered until the disputes period expired. When I investigated the parcel tracking it was recorded as there being nobody to sign for it at the delivery address on repeated occasions. So, correct address, but apparently 'nobody at home'. It did get finally delivered immediately after the disputes period expired. I may be wrong, but I surmised that there was an arrangement with the postie. The absence of any goodwill was confirmed when the only reply that I got to my repeated attempt at communications was to find myself 'banned' from purchasing any further items from that sellers eBay listings.

All up that cost me the original purchase price + postage, the cost of postage back to Japan, which is quite expensive for a heavy item, and the returned item itself...

I console myself that I did get several items from him before I was banned that were OK, one that was good value and one that I am extremely happy with that I would never have been able to acquire otherwise. However, I wouldn't buy from him again, even if I could.

This forum is ideal for sharing our online buying experiences so that we can learn from each other who is good to deal with, what is fair value and those to avoid.


* I expect that my banishment by that seller was to avoid any published negative feedback comments that would challenge his expertise in natural waterstones. The assumption in Japan is that we westerners don't have a clue when it comes to natural waterstones. To be challenged with negative feedback by a gaijin could potentially result in a loss of western business, but also a loss of face.

Originally Posted by NeilS

so that we can learn from each other who is good to deal with, what is fair value, and what to avoid.

I will without reservation recommend daiku-dougu run by Teshiba-san. I have purchased $2000 plus of tools from him over the years. You only pay once he has the tool in hand and he will send you photos of the tools to see if you are happy with the tool before paying. Prices are always competitive. Shipping is always quick - however, with covid, there has been an increase in delays and costs but that is not his fault. He runs a physical store that you can visit and he competes in the annual kezuroukai planning competition. In all the years I have only not been able to get one chisel from a single high-end blacksmith who became ill and could not make the tool I ordered. I live in hope that maybe one day the blacksmith will get around to making my chisel. So I can pay for it and to add my collection. Teshiba-san - speaks English and you can use the built-in translator in Chrome and Safari to convert the website into English. As for the Iida seller - have seen him on eBay and while some of the tools looked tempting however the postage cost seemed excessive. Also, the same photos would be used again and again for different auctions.

Originally Posted by NeilS

I had an experience with another well known eBay seller of natural waterstones and knives out of Japan that had that down to a fine art. I returned a waterstone that was IMO* incorrectly graded, but it was never delivered until the disputes period expired. When I investigated the parcel tracking it was recorded as there being nobody to sign for it at the delivery address on repeated occasions. So, correct address, but apparently 'nobody at home'. It did get finally delivered immediately after the disputes period expired. I may be wrong, but I surmised that there was an arrangement with the postie. The absence of any goodwill was confirmed when the only reply that I got to my repeated attempt at communications was to find myself 'banned' from purchasing any further items from that sellers eBay listings.

All up that cost me the original purchase price + postage, the cost of postage back to Japan, which is quite expensive for a heavy item, and the returned item itself...

I console myself that I did get several items from him before I was banned that were OK, one that was good value and one that I am extremely happy with that I would never have been able to acquire otherwise. However, I wouldn't buy from him again, even if I could.

This forum is ideal for sharing our online buying experiences so that we can learn from each other who is good to deal with, what is fair value and those to avoid.


* I expect that my banishment by that seller was to avoid any published negative feedback comments that would challenge his expertise in natural waterstones. The assumption in Japan is that we westerners don't have a clue when it comes to natural waterstones. To be challenged with negative feedback by a gaijin could potentially result in a loss of western business, but also a loss of face.

the feedback systems can probably be gamed. It's hard to know if you're ethical (like us) because you'd never consider it.

I thought the flipper market and the markups on stones were unethical a little less than a decade ago and for a while, bought a few wholesaler listed stones (on yahoo.jp) as well as stones picked by barber shop pickers and others, and then graded and sold them.

the feedback that I got from people was shocking - in terms of how far different they described getting (taken advantage of) and being surprised that I provided detailed honest descriptions that actually panned out.

It wasn't a business for me, it was a matter of being able to see three digits of stones without having to buy all of them, and being honest to people. it's a shame that it was seen as so unusual at the time.

I won't go into all of the little nitpicks that really bothered me, but safe to say once you've used several dozen characteristic stones, you can see used listings and get pretty good at the way they're listed and get 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 good ones, but all at the cost of less than one stone in the US (sometimes substantially), and then grade them and direct the mediocre ones properly and at a cheap price. And not charge the moon for the others. what was more typical on etsy here, for example, was stones that had characteristics that made them very low value in japan (really narrow, etc), and sellers who were spouting nonsense, charging the moon and then berating customers who weren't satisfied.

if someone sells a truly good stone graded for its purpose, it doesn't require knowing a whole bunch of secrets to use it - it will make something sharp. if a stone wasn't that great, the scope that I have would rat it out immediately.

In general, I found most picked older stones that were $50-$200 each depending on size to be better than most of the wholesaled new stones. There could be an incredibly blissful fine easy to use older stone on a regular basis that I rarely see new. I hate to say that - i've got a big black renge ohira suita in my garage now that's attribute is the rarity of how it looks, but the performance is no better than a $100 reasonably well picked stone.

Whilst we're on the topic of tool shops for Japanese tools, I found this one a while back whilst perusing YouTube videos (it was noted by a visitor to the physical store): YAMASUKE Japanese Tools SHOP – YAMASUKE KurashigeTools

Has anyone any experience with this store?

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

Whilst we're on the topic of tool shops for Japanese tools, I found this one a while back whilst perusing YouTube videos (it was noted by a visitor to the physical store): YAMASUKE Japanese Tools SHOP – YAMASUKE KurashigeTools

Has anyone any experience with this store?

No clue on the guy, but it looks like he specializes at least partially in finding old stock stuff that wasn't sold and then selling it without marking it up as if it's new and he's selling it in the US or continental europe.

Sharpening stuff is OK, but I wouldn't buy any of the natural stones that he has - I wouldn't buy the natural stones most dealers have, though. the prices have gone nutty in the last 15 years at retail points, but the used stone market doesn't show any reason justifying why the new ones are so expensive. I think it's a matter of infrequent sale, infrequent customer, small market, high markup.

he's got a few sets of old stock white 1 chisels that are neatly made with black oxide backs and a kiri/box for $500 or so. One would be far better off going that route than ordering some set that's $1500 or $3000. It's very unlikely that the chisels will be much different aside from the gaijin upcharge.

thanks, Midnight Man - YAMASUKE Japanese Tools SHOP – YAMASUKE KurashigeTools looks like a great site for tools and their book collection is good - plus it is a Shopify site so it has all the translation, and currency features baked in making it much easier to use than most Japanese tool sites. The Japanese are oddly behind the times when it comes to things like web technology.

Comparing the prices on his synthetic stones vs my usual Japanese supplier he is even a little dollars cheaper than my usual supplier who is already cheaper than most tool stores.

Originally Posted by D.W.

he's got a few sets of old stock white 1 chisels that are neatly made with black oxide backs and a kiri/box for $500 or so. One would be far better off going that route than ordering some set that's $1500 or $3000. It's very unlikely that the chisels will be much different aside from the gaijin upcharge.

As someone with little exposure to Japanese chisels, would you have a pointer/link to one or two that might be worth consideration please?

The whole Japanese hand tool arena is something I would like to get involved in, so I've been watching/devouring as much as I can in the way of learning, but nothing beats experience IMO, so any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

As someone with little exposure to Japanese chisels, would you have a pointer/link to one or two that might be worth consideration please?

The whole Japanese hand tool arena is something I would like to get involved in, so I've been watching/devouring as much as I can in the way of learning, but nothing beats experience IMO, so any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

upon looking further, it looks like most listings are sold.

The sukemaru chisels in white 1 would've been a good choice. I don't know who masayoshi is, nor does the listing say what type of white steel is in the chisels - it could be white1 or white2 or swedish - it doesn't really matter.

Those chisels are well finished in a way that isn't just willy nilly (not going to be done on cheap chisels meant for export).

I've bought a lot of japanese chisels off of buyee and resold most of them over here (not for a profit, more out of curiosity). There isn't much that's junk that doesn't look like junk.

What we tend to see in the west is chisels that are flogged by japanese retailers specializing in catering to americans or americans specializing in catering to americans (at a high price) - those brands tend to go high. But making chisels isn't rocket science, nor is heat treatment of white steel. it's indifference that creates low quality - i can heat treat white steel to a level that matches what's in the chisels listed (I've heat treated a few hundred things - but just illustrating that with some experience and testing of samples, you don't even need expensive equipment to do it).

Point being, I couldn't tell you anything about the reasonably well finished or honestly finished (not sloppy, but not prissy) chisels that was different than the brands that I've gotten from known makers (Ouchi, Matsunaga) and I have two sets of chisels that I've kept and couldn't tell you the maker of either. I kept those two because I like them.

There is always some risk that japanese chisels will be a little overhard, but a reasonably accurate kitchen oven can deal with that reliably, and supposing I'm around, I'd be glad to help coach through that. it takes a little bit of patience and isn't risky - and I would need to poll you a little bit about what's not satisfactory to make sure the issue is overhardness.

most of these chisels are and have been heat treated in a controlled furnace now - the guy sitting in the dark splashing drops of water on a chisel to check temper or judging temperature by eye is not common for day to day work. I would rather not have a tool tempered that way (heating for the quench by eye in a same environment and light situation is fine, but it's not done because it's just easier to batch heat stuff in a furnace and then quench....

we often still see the quench part of it, which makes it look like someone is doing it all "by art" and not by science.

This seller lists a lot of sukemaru HSS chisels. I'd say two more things, and then a third, so I guess that's three:
1) the HSS chisels are not like the rest - they are either glued together or solid HSS (and thus thinner than the industrially adhered HSS). This gluing, as stu tierney used to describe it, is probably some combination of heat and chemistry - it's permanent and durable. Wrought and high carbon steel will forge weld without any such thing. At any rate, I wouldn't get HSS chisels as my one and only set, but you may wish to try them if you can find them cheap. I found a set of sukemaru HSS chisels on buyee (just a small set of five) a few years ago for $70.
2) these chisels are intended (the oire) to be used with hammer in one hand, chisel on the handle of the other. Little push work is assumed, and the chisels aren't designed for it or if you like to pinch chisel blades and hit the handle instead of holding on the handle, I'd stick with western chisels. that's a bad habit, anyway - something I've only seen people who do little work demonstrating (perhaps they're demonstrating something easier for their students who are beginners).
3) the seller has some mixed assortments of chisels for $275 in the past. They are also a good way to get your feet wet.

It matters a lot less that you have some kind of perfect aesthetic set - but for the person who just really wants the $2500 set of tasai chisels that iida would sell for $4k, I guess if you're looking for an ideal and use will be spare and you have money to burn, more power to you. if there is a belief that kiyotada, tasai, kioyohisa are markedly better than the used chisels in these listings or on buyee - they aren't. But they are all finished well and put together to be attractive to westerners, and that sells.

there's no real free lunch, so if you start reading various listings about the chisel that "sharpens easier than anything else but is harder", it's BS. I use a steel called 26c3 for chisels here - it is like white steel (almost identical - you can't get white 1 easily outside of japan, but 26c3 is probably a little bit better, anyway) - it has nothing for wear resistance in it, like white or swedish carbon steels, and the sharpening effort is directly related to final hardness. It wears me out a little to see this or that listing of special folded steel that is more durable but goes through a special forge process with "the master" and is easier to sharpen than anything else.

(none of the steel or backing metal in these chisels is that expensive, either. The amount of steel in a set of ten chisels in white 1 is probably $25.

The steel that I use is austrian (bohler/voestalpine 26c3). it's wonderful steel but doesn't cost any more than good O1 steel.

by the way, feel free to send me a PM if you're looking at something online, and I'll give you a brief would I or would I not go for it.

Out of curiosity, I googled Masayoshi chisels (not a bad idea to do - if someone has found a bunch of old stock from a dealer that went out of business, what is $500 may be $300 elsewhere).

I saw speculation from some forum users repeating things that people have said to them and confidently relaying them without having a clue. There's nothing really expensive about making a chisel that will perform as well as anything.

In japanese tool speak, that means that you could make an $80 chisel that was properly addressed thermally (adjusting the structure of the steel by proper heating temperatures and controls rather than "special forging") that could end up somewhere overstock for $40 each and match anything ever made.

And if you have a chisel half as good, it'll do anything you ever need to, anyway.

Originally Posted by Midnight Man

Japanese chisels, would you have a pointer/link to one or two that might be worth consideration

In my experience with Japanese chisels the brand name or how much people recommend a brand is a poor indicator of a quality chisel and price is also a poor indicator.

When I got my first Japanese chisels. I bought a mid-level brand that has a good reputation amongst Western woodworkers. A brand has been sold to Westerners for generations and is a family business that has been around for 150 years. Sounds good right? I will not mention the brand in public.

I ended up buying several - what a mistake that was. They were complete junk. If you even waived them in front of a piece of wood they would chip. They were not heat treated correctly. I ended up getting rid of most of them. I kept two and they have gotten a little better as a ground away the overcooked steel. But you should not need to do that.

I think people forgave their short cummings because there is this notion out there that all Japanese chisels are prone to chipping.

I almost gave up on Japanese chisels. Then a friend had his honeymoon in Japan and he came back with a set of 5 Masashige chisels. Now Masashige is not well known outside Japan and he was not a fancy maker. Masashige is my favorite. I ended up buying 5 chisels. Regrettably, he died several years ago and is no longer available. They are tough, hold an edge get sharp and they were priced low for craftsmen to use every day.

At this point, I have nearly 20 chisels from several makers, including the elder Tasai, Kunikei (no longer making), Masashige (passed away), Kikuhiromaru plus a few unknown makers. I would rate them all differently but they are all keepers.

Two that I have not yet been able to get are Kiyohisa and Fujihiro. My collecting has slowed because I cannot justify buying more chisels that I do not need. But I have eyed a few specific sizes and types for specific uses.

In short here are my tips:

• It all boils down to the skill of the craftsman and his ability to heat treat correctly and consistently.
• Do not trust the maker's or a brand's public review/reputation it is unreliable.
• Unknown makers can be very good.
• Price matters little - a cheap chisel can outperform a significantly more expensive chisel.
• The price difference between a mid-ranger maker and a high-end maker is marginal for the same-size chisel.
• Do not buy sets unless you know and love that maker and you just collecting.
• Even a great blacksmith can have an off day sometimes you may get a dud.
• Build a relationship with a trusted seller.
• You will pay for artistry however how much artistic refinement is worth is up to you.
• A chisel is only as good as your ability to sharpen it and Japanese chisels cannot be easily jigged in a honing guide.

Many thanks to you both for some very detailed information, and food for thought!

This website YAMASUKE Japanese Tools SHOP – YAMASUKE KurashigeTools Was mentioned before in this thread as a source of Japanese tools I just happen to find this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBoNdIgpZK8 It is an amazing tour of this kurashige tool shop. Enjoy