Thread: chisels

I took a couple of weekend seminars in which I used Japanese tools (one given by Odate, the other by Inomoto), during which I compared them to western hand tools I'd used for 20+ years (mostly powered tools for the time before that), and chose Japanese. Fortunately the second seminar took place at Hiraide, and Harrelson had some very good tools on hand. The last thing I did that weekend was buy a few of them and I've never regretted buying them. I still love a Tasai ultra thin paring chisel I bought then (about 10 years ago), it makes me feel like I know what I'm doing.

So I say buy quality, whether Tasai, Ouchi, Koyamaichi, or others of similar quality. As to the cost of a set, that was never an issue. I buy what I need and/or plan to need during the next year or so, generally nothing more. Now, often when I buy on ebay, I get small sets of things like carving chisels, saw setting hammers, and so on; but in these cases I really don't spend that much. A lot of stuff I buy there is dirt cheap.

Pam

Originally Posted by sinjin

B
What I am curious to ask did you then decide to splash out and buy Tasia or Imai or some other
quite expensive brand and how did you feel you have benefited from these chisels.

I have never owned a Japanese tool that I did not like, including dozens of chisels.

My first Japanese chisels, were a few of the well known mid-level brands purchased from a local woodworking tool retailer. They were the only ones available at the time and provided me with a great introduction to their use and maintenance, and are still serving me well. They give me the freedom to belt them very hard when I need to without any qualms about damaging an expensive tool.

Having got a taste of how well Japanese tool steel holds its edge, I then experimented with purchasing via eBay some used nomi form Japan, as many of us have. Some were very old, very used and near the end of their usable life before I acquired them, often from unknown or unreadable makers; I enjoy using them because someone has used and valued them for many years (perhaps passing down several generations) before coming to me and nearly without exception they still perform very well. They record how they have been maintained over many years of use and teach me how to (and sometimes how not to) look after them. The steels in a few of them are as good as any I have.

More recently I began purchasing individual chisels from the best known makers, including a Tasai. And yes, they are something special in their craftsmanship and feel, and no doubt over time I might get to experience some extra performance from them, but I tend to leave them in their boxes and reach for one of the less valuable chisels in case I accidentally roll one of the special ones off the bench and chip it on the floor (yeah, I don't use them sitting on the floor). If it was my work and I was at it every day I expect I would use them in preference. For me having a chisel like a Tasai is more of an aesthetic enjoyment than a utilitarian requirement.

I know chisels are offered in sets, and probably there is some savings in buying them that way, and also attractive to look at all lined up together, but putting your eggs all in the one basket is not the way I would go. Why not have a couple of Tasai, Ouchi, and Koyamaichi each, and leave a few sizes/styles to experiment with other makers. Then you will not die wondering if you would have preferred another maker....

Thanks for the imput guys....Like many i have been buying Japanese tools for maybe 20 yrs or more but never purchases the very high end market.
I have paid heaps for a Kanna which I own 3. But only one has been what you would call high end. And that is awesome to use.....way better than i will ever be.
Have been talking via mail to Stu who has been a great help on this issue.
Thanks for the imput everyone

PS - Damascus (Mokume) cladding may make a nomi (or whatever tool) look very handsome, but costs more and doesn't do anything whatsoever for its performance.

Originally Posted by NeilS

PS - Damascus (Mokume) cladding may make a nomi (or whatever tool) look very handsome, but costs more and doesn't do anything whatsoever for its performance.

That's almost always true, but in the case of some very thin shanked chisels the mokume intertwined with steel strengthens the shank; so it some times does good things, but rarely.

Pam

Originally Posted by Pam

That's almost always true, but in the case of some very thin shanked chisels the mokume intertwined with steel strengthens the shank; so it some times does good things, but rarely.

That may be true, but its not necessary for the chisel to function as designed, so remains a purely cosmetic feature.

It remains my opinion, that the performance of a tool is only and singularly dependent on the user and (in the case of Japanese hand tools) never a function of the cost. Thats not to say that expensive tools aren't worth the price, but one has to realize what they are paying more for.

Steve (girding myself for the repercussions)

Originally Posted by Pam

That's almost always true, but in the case of some very thin shanked chisels the mokume intertwined with steel strengthens the shank; so it some times does good things, but rarely.

OK, Pam, you have rightly called me out on this one and identified one of the few areas where the application of mokume is functionally beneficial for a 'tool', which I was not aware of. I understand that the origins of the mokume technique was in sword making where it had functional benefits. The multiple outer laminated layers of softer metal cladding provided a shock absorber for the very hard core (and therefore very brittle) cutting edge steel. Such a long thin piece of cutting edge steel was prone to flexing and snapping without the cushioning provided by these multiple softer laminated outer layers. The decorative surface effect we associate with mokume-gane or itame-gane (translated as woodgrain or burl metal) was a by-product which became associated with functional quality, then appreciated for itself, and eventually applied to smaller cutting implements where it had no functional benefit over a single outer layer of softer metal (ji-gane).

Originally Posted by Sheets

It remains my opinion, that the performance of a tool is only and singularly dependent on the user and (in the case of Japanese hand tools) never a function of the cost. Thats not to say that expensive tools aren't worth the price, but one has to realize what they are paying more for.

Steve (girding myself for the repercussions)

Yes, Steve, I agree with you that 'carpenters make tables and chairs, not hammers and saws'.

Yes, Steve, I agree with you that the cost of Japanese woodworking tools is not always proportional to their quality. It is a Japanese thing to pay a premium for the tools made by named makers. This is not just a brand name thing, but a respect for tradition and the way in which knowledge and skill are learned and passed on. If you can find a less well known maker who doesn't have generations of recognition behind them, but makes quality tools then you get quality at a lower price. There are also some unknown smiths that make for recognised 'retail names', who are very competent smiths in their own right and whose individual production is of a high standard yet sell at reasonable prices, but are hard to find or buy from if you are an outsider. Then there are the 'retail brands' that have their own hierarchy, and sweet spots. Just because a well known retail brand makers produce a lot of mid-range priced/quality tools this does not mean that they are not able to produce some top end tools at relatively competitive prices, eg Iyoroi.

So, not sure you are getting any disagreement from me, Steve...

Originally Posted by Sheets

It remains my opinion, that the performance of a tool is only and singularly dependent on the user and (in the case of Japanese hand tools) never a function of the cost. Thats not to say that expensive tools aren't worth the price, but one has to realize what they are paying more for.

Steve (girding myself for the repercussions)

Steve,

Repercussions incoming...

There is a 'line' at which a Japanese chisel goes from being mediocre and possibly 'almost there' to being a fully fledged, no holds barred professional grade tool.

If your chisel is under that line, then chances are it will behave badly with chipping, may need quite a bit of effort to get it working and likely won't be a refined as a better chisel. Performance wise, much of the time it'll be just fine which is why a lot of folks have these chisels from 'under the line' and never have a spot of trouble with them. I've got plenty of chisels from 'under the line' and haven't had much trouble with them at all. Aside from a few snapped ones, snapped tips, chipping and typical "Japanese chisels" misbehavior. But they're not always doing naughty things...

If your chisel is 'above the line' then everything changes. It'll likely look better, but that's not the important part. It'll be made with the right materials, but again that's not the important part. It'll have a better quality handle, hoop and won't need very much effort to make it ready for work, but again that's not the important part.

The important part is something you can't see and won't always get close to when you're working with the chisel. The really important part is how the chisel was made, the steps it went through in that process and that every step was done by a trusted and reliable maker/method.

A properly made Japanese chisel is astonishingly tough, tenacious and durable, all while staying sharp for a long time.

And therein lies the difference. A cheap chisel, you poise the chisel on the wood and wonder if the edge will chip or crack, and takes steps to avoid that happening. You can prolong the point in time where the edge completely fails and needs restoration. A good chisel, you poise the chisel on the wood and know, with confidence, that after hacking out a bunch of wood and doing all kinds of apparently stupid things that Japanese chisels can't actually do, you're going to need to re-sharpen it. But it's going to take a while, and when that time comes all you'll need to do is resharpen not restore.


There is a difference, a really ^&%$#^%&$^ big difference. But it's one you can't see and one that not everyone can experience.


If you've only ever used chisels from below the line, and you've run into edge problems at any point in their life, it's because they're below that line. Even these chisels can be at or over the line, but this is an accident rather than by design and it's simply a case of getting a chisel above that line takes time, money and effort.

Now I know some will disagree with me, and that's quite alright. Go right ahead. Just know one thing.

I'm not putting out an opinion here and I'm backed up by the folks who make the tools and they're aware that I know the difference, what the difference really is as well as why and how it makes a difference. In short, I'm not putting out an opinion.


Neil, Iyoroi are above and also dip below the line. I don't know why they've got stuff below the line, but I'd say it's cost and nothing more. They certainly know how to make a very good chisel, but some of them just don't shape up at all...


Stu.

Originally Posted by Schtoo

Neil, Iyoroi are above and also dip below the line. I don't know why they've got stuff below the line, but I'd say it's cost and nothing more. They certainly know how to make a very good chisel, but some of them just don't shape up at all...

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make about Iyoroi, Stu.

Just because they make most of their chisels for the bottom end of the market, that doesn't mean they can to be automatically dismissed if you are looking for some good quality chisels, but you are going have to pay three or four times as much for their top quality tools, which then puts them up there in a similar price bracket to the other quality makers, but still not as high as some.

Originally Posted by NeilS

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make about Iyoroi, Stu.

Just because they make most of their chisels for the bottom end of the market, that doesn't mean they can to be automatically dismissed if you are looking for some good quality chisels, but you are going have to pay three or four times as much for their top quality tools, which then puts them up there in a similar price bracket to the other quality makers, but still not as high as some.

Sorry Neil, I didn't follow through on the link to see where you pointed to.

What So has written there is very, very accurate. I don't agree with everything So has written or said, but with Iyoroi he's bang on the money.

One of the most recent tool shows I went to, Iyoroi was there with a lot of chisels lined up. Many other makers there as well of course, but I found it curious that there were a lot of Iyoroi chisels there, all very cheap and not many buyers. I didn't recall Mr. Iyoroi being at all busy, whereas I had to wedge my way into Ouchi's and Koyamaichi's booth to simply say 'Hello'.

But, you do what's necessary to keep the doors open, and Iyoroi have made their choice and that's that. I know it's not a terribly popular one, but that's how it is.

It does make things somewhat difficult though. The unfortunate perception is that a cheap tool is as good as expensive one, and when the good tool and the cheap tool have the same name on them, how on earth can you tell the difference?

Stu.

Hi Stu,

Ok, ok. To avoid going around this again, I'm jumping ship to the other camp. Its now my opinion that in order to make anything successfully out of wood, you have to spend a lot of money on tools. The more you spend, the better the results. Its been proven time and again that the cheap ones will not work.
There, that's so much more reasonable

Steve (who'd rather switch than fight)

Steve, we're going to make you fight over every word. Anyhow, I would argue that buying a very few tools will allow you to make most anything you want in wood. Therefore, it's possible you could buy the most expensive tools and spend much, much, less money that if you went out and bought sets of sets of cheap tools.

Pam

Well not hard to see this has sparked some interest...lol.

I know when i first bought a Lie neilson 5 1/2 after using
a very old number 5 which was well looked after the difference was
very noticebale. Maybe if i just bought a new thicker blade
and chip breaker the difference may not have been so noticeable i don't know.
But i'm happy with it just the same. Maybe 20 yrs ago i bought a Kanna in Melbourne
and loved using it on softwoods but not so happy on hardwoods. A couple of years
ago i lashed out and bought what i was told is a very good kanna from SO.
Cost more than the Lie neilson actually. But the kanna is simply a joy to use, not
as quick and easy as ths Lie Neilson by any stretch but its something very special \
whenever i use it....Mind you i spend maybe an 1/2 tuning before i do anything.
I agree also the quality of the tools can be a great help when doing your work.
And really if your a full time Woodworker which i'm not any more...Good tools
I don't think should be an issue with cost. If you like and appreciate fine things
all the power to you.