Thread: How often do you see a delaminating J chisel?

I haven't seen that before and would not be happy to have it happen to one of mine. It may do for a paring action but I would not be hitting it with a hammer anymore, bummer.

Originally Posted by lignator

It is hard to catch in the photos but there is a visible bubble on the surface that looks like it could be caused by an air-gap between layers about 20mm x 5 to 7mm. It looks like there is an opening about 3mm long at the lowest point in the slope (where the high grade steel meets the low grade steel).

Nope you can see it very well

Would like to see what soataz (resident japanese tool member) knows about this sort of incident

That would be deraminating I guess.

Thanks for the replies. I guess I should add one more note to avoid confusion. I received the chisel this way. It is supposedly new, but from very old stock. The defect was not obvious until I removed a thick layer of lacquer or wax that was non-uniformly splattered on the back. About 10 other chisels (5 different brands) I received from this same source all looked great after cleaning them up.

This is called "fukure (bloating)" and is caused by air getting in between the jigane (base iron) and hagane (steel) when laminating. It is definitely a defect that any decent shop would replace. I'm sure the seller will happily replace it for you lignator, unless it was sold cheap as defective.

I feel it is so unfortunate that Iyoroi sell these defective tools, even if it was for super reduced price. It'll just lower their reputation as defective tool maker. I can see that they can be used, and there should be almost no problem at all apart from the looks (yes you can strike, it won't peel off or anything until the delaminated part come to the edge) but Japanese tools are't all about superficial functionality, but spiritual functionality as well. I wonder if they don't have any pride in their products.

As you can see in my web site (chisel and yariganna), Iyoroi CAN make great and beautiful tools. But if Iyoroi keep sending these defective tools to the market (I have already been shown a couple from my friends), people one day might assume all Iyoroi tools have chance to be defective.

This is totally my personal opinion and definitely not a fact, but, I believe that if you make things with tools that you don't think is beautiful, the product itself will be affected by that thought. If you feel that the tool you are using is a special one, I assume you'd pay extra attention when preparing and using it. And that should definitely show on the result of production.

I have once told someone that $3,000 plane planes better than $300 plane, usually "simply" because it is more expensive. You'd expect the $3000 plane to be better, and that thought affects everything. Adjusting, sharpening, planing. Of course it'll plane better, and that's why tool smiths make their best performing tools beautiful as well, put it in a beautiful box with calligraphy signiture and a red stamp. This is because we are built more precise than machines I believe.

And that is why I basically sell only beautiful tools, even though it is more expensive and will not sell too well.

BTW, I have never seen such a wonderfully huge fukure before. You might consider yourself lucky in that sense?

And thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by soatoz

BTW, I have never seen such a wonderfully huge fukure before. You might consider yourself lucky in that sense?

And thanks for sharing.

Soatoz,

The word fukure for a fault is an absolute clanger (ozzie slang) of a word to describe a failure in manufacture that has landed on the buyer. It is a word that should be taken up by all of us and used often as it is similiar to two English words run together to describe a fault that the seller does not want to fix and know's he can get away with. You deserve several greenies for bringing it into our little corner of the world.

Cheers, John.

Check out this failure. It was posted on another forum (WoodNet) by a member who stated that he impatiently tried to lever out the waste. He reckons he went at it a bit more aggressively than he should have.







The wood is Cocobolo.

You can view the original thread here.

Originally Posted by soatoz

. . . if you make things with tools that you don't think is beautiful, the product itself will be affected by that thought. . . .

. . . This is because we are built more precise than machines I believe. . .

OK Soatoz, I respect your technical expertise, but I think there may be a translation problem with your high dollar plane philosophy.

Firstly, do beautiful tools beget beautiful products or more likely, do the finest designers and craftsmen beget beautiful (& successful) products and thus can afford those beautiful tools?

Secondly, a machine can be designed to be more precise than any person. But precision alone is not the attraction to some of these high dollar tools. Studies have shown that if you graphically enhance a beautiful models face to make either side as a perfect mirror image of the other, the model looks dull, boring, or ordinary. Imagine Cindy Crawford without her birthmark, or Gwyneth Paltrow without her beauty mark, or a perfectly symmetrical tree for that matter. All these would be less than satisfying.

People are attracted to imperfection. Consciously or subconsciously; Kids will pick up the spotted faced puppy, collectors want the double stamped Stanley plane blades, the two headed sixpence, the mis-printed postal stamp. So, as a collector of rare and beautiful chisels, how could you pass up the deal I am about to offer you on an extraordinary example of Iyoroi’s stunning bubbles fukure style. New, unused, and still wrapped in yesterdays newspaper, POA.

Truthfully, I appreciate your instructive advise . . and enjoy your enlightening philosophy.

Thanks for sharing.
rick

Originally Posted by lignator

Secondly, a machine can be designed to be more precise than any person.

Might want to try explaining that to these guys...

They will, most likely, laugh in your face and be quite right in doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I know that machine can be very, very accurate and consistant in what they make, but it seems that for that extra little bit, the well trained human hand still has no equal.

Case in point, the guys in the link start with megabuck CNC machines and call that good enough for the craftspersons to go on with, because the machine just aint got it.

If they get a machine that has the touch and sense of a human, then maybe then they got us licked.

Anyway, enough hijack for now.

Originally Posted by lignator

OK Soatoz, I respect your technical expertise, but I think there may be a translation problem with your high dollar plane philosophy.

Firstly, do beautiful tools beget beautiful products or more likely, do the finest designers and craftsmen beget beautiful (& successful) products and thus can afford those beautiful tools?


Truthfully, I appreciate your instructive advise . . and enjoy your enlightening philosophy.

Thanks for sharing.
rick

I think there probably was a misunderstanding here. Soatoz is merely countering an old and often heard arguement. This being that functionality is all and that beauty is not important to a tools performance and is therefore a waste of money if it is attracting a premium.

This is relevant because Iyoroi is obviously selling tools which have serious forging faults, on the grounds that they will be functional and therefore should not be destroyed (and reforged). I know this as I also have such a chisel from this maker.

It is a shame. To me tools, like the work they produce, are an extension of self. I love my handtools and to me, their beauty and functionality are not seperate components. Of course many of my friends cannot see the beauty that I see within certain tools.

The respect I have for my tools definitely affects my ongoing treatment of them and translates into the work these tools and I produce.

Whew!

Hopefully this explains the "high dollar plane philosophy" if an explanation was required. Another way of reading this comment by Soatoz is that he is advising us to buy the $300 plane. (Think about it).
As an aside, Soatoz has several times steered me toward less expensive tools than what I was planning to buy. He does not make it clear in his comments but his stock is for the most part, high end items that are ALSO very good value for money.

Yes all very Zen.

It's a bit of a flip side argument to the poor tradesman blaming his tools. You're saying that having nice looking tools some how makes you a better craftsman. Well, if so, good for you, although I suggest that this idea is all in your mind and you could probably make something as nice with ugly tools like so many of us have to. I'm afraid that if I have to pay $1,000 for a set of chisels so that I can reach this lofty state of perfection, then my work will continue to be second rate.

I thank companies like Iyoroi for making their factory second tools available to people who can't afford to buy perfection. At the end of the day, if the sharp end is sharp, it doesn't matter what the blunt end looks like, the wood wont care. Beauty is only skin deep.

Originally Posted by silentC

Yes all very Zen.

Can you please explain the above? I don't understand this at all.

Originally Posted by silentC

Yes all very Zen.

It's a bit of a flip side argument to the poor tradesman blaming his tools. You're saying that having nice looking tools some how makes you a better craftsman.

I don't remember saying that.

Originally Posted by silentC

Well, if so, good for you, although I suggest that this idea is all in your mind and you could probably make something as nice with ugly tools like so many of us have to. I'm afraid that if I have to pay $1,000 for a set of chisels so that I can reach this lofty state of perfection, then my work will continue to be second rate.

I have made plenty of things with inexpensive tools.
Almost all of my tools have not cost me much.
I have neither reached nor aimed for lofty states of perfection.

Originally Posted by silentC

I thank companies like Iyoroi for making their factory second tools available to people who can't afford to buy perfection. At the end of the day, if the sharp end is sharp, it doesn't matter what the blunt end looks like, the wood wont care. Beauty is only skin deep.

The fact that you are grateful for inferior "name" tools is probably what is preventing your aquisition of good tools. I do wonder if it is possible that your brutal and truculent attitude is somehow not transposed into your work.

Dear me, I do wish people would stop getting offended when someone challenges their views. It's all intended in the spirit of debate, I'm not having a personal shot at you. Calling me brutal and truculent is getting a bit personal but don't worry, I have a thick skin as well.

Now, firstly my coments are initially directed at soatoz but also by association at people who might support this view. Forgive me if I mistook you for the latter.

So what he is saying, is that having "beautiful" tools makes you a better craftsperson and so on. I am countering that view by suggesting that if this is so, then the difference is all in your mind and not in the tool and that with the right mind set "ugly" tools should not hold you back. Following on from this, I suggest that buying expensive (and "beautiful") tools does not necessarily lead to perfection and the lack of them does not preclude it. That's all I'm suggesting. I find the idea a bit elitist.

I'm not sure what you meant by your second last sentence. What prevents my aquisition of the quality of tools that are being discussed here is the price. If I had wads of cash, sure I would buy the best. I always buy the best I can afford. Although I don't believe they would make that much difference to the quality of my work. Your last sentence is a plain insult but I'll let it slide because you're obviously in a delicate mood.

I'm not really qualified to instruct you in Zen. Try a google.