Thread: Flush Cut Saw problem: Nakaya Kugihiki

I've acquired a few saws and will do some comparisons over the next few weeks in this thread.

How did they go, Groggy?

I just placed an order for the veritas flush cut.
Veritas® Snug-Plug® Cutters & Saw Offer - Lee Valley Tools

Hopefully it'll be a good experience.

My shop time has been a bit disrupted due to computer and network problems needing to be fixed, however, I'll make a few comments.





From L to R:

1. Probably the best general purpose saw for flush cutting. Fairly quick and a slightly heavier blade. 8/10, handy and effective.

2. not a flush cut saw, ignore.

3. LV saw keeps on keeping on. The only thing I do not like about this saw is the reduction in blade depth where it enters the handle. It introduces a weak spot that can buckle if the saw happens to grab on the return stroke. Otherwise a little ripper. 7/10, a worker.

4. This is the saw I had the problem with. It does a great cut but is very fragile on hard woods. Used very carefully on a thin piece it should leave a nice close cut. I'd recommend that you used a business card as a spacer with a stronger blade and just planed it down though. 5/10 fragile.

5. I haven't used this one yet, I'll update this post when I do.

Originally Posted by BozInOz

I just placed an order for the veritas flush cut.
Veritas® Snug-Plug® Cutters & Saw Offer - Lee Valley Tools

Hopefully it'll be a good experience.

Dan, it is a very good little saw, just be careful not to jam it and push the blade or it will kink near the handle.

Dually noted.

My experience of japanese saw's (although limited) has found great problems with the thin kerf bending or teeth falling off. A common experience from the conversations I've had.

Off topics totally... I also picked up this little number... LN miss out on a sale this time.
Wenzloff Rip Dovetail Saw - Lee Valley Tools
(By ppicked up I mean, ordered, shipping not confirmed, not shipped, not paid for, not in the shed.... but getting there.)

Has anyone here had any experience at all working entirely with Jap tools and doing the shaping plus polishing themselves?

Seriously, you can find no reason why your .2mm saw (replaceable and inferior quality compared to handmade ones or semi-handmade) lost almost all it's teeth?

Jarrah is a very resillient type of wood, it tears an awful lot on a tools edge to work it and IF a Japanese woodworker worked with it he would adjust his tools accordingly.

I have never had a single tooth break on any of my Jap saws, and I have sawed in hardwood aswell as softwood - but again it needs much more attention.
Ask yourself first, did you put any lateral strain on the saw at all? Did you let the teeth work instead of yourself?

The logic behind Jap saws is that the pulling motion and thin steel is supported on the height, so even if it's very thin it can still cut hard woods reliably granted you keep every ounce of force focused on the spine of the saw, not in the teeth - if you do that they will tear off. edit: Focused on the spine but with only the tips of the teeth touching, it's very different from western saws.

I really suggest that you contemplate how you place your force if not even visualize how such a thin saw should be handled in order to cut very hard woods. Jarrah is a bit over the top for a replaceable saw with a softwood setting though.

Originally Posted by Halicon

Seriously, you can find no reason why your .2mm saw (replaceable and inferior quality compared to handmade ones or semi-handmade) lost almost all it's teeth?

No. Especially when cutting only 6 10x20mm dominos.

Jarrah is a very resillient type of wood, it tears an awful lot on a tools edge to work it and IF a Japanese woodworker worked with it he would adjust his tools accordingly.

Pick up a western saw you mean?

I have never had a single tooth break on any of my Jap saws, and I have sawed in hardwood aswell as softwood - but again it needs much more attention.

Teeth breaking was a first for me.

Ask yourself first, did you put any lateral strain on the saw at all? Did you let the teeth work instead of yourself?

Did you read my post?

The logic behind Jap saws is that the pulling motion and thin steel is supported on the height, so even if it's very thin it can still cut hard woods reliably granted you keep every ounce of force focused on the spine of the saw, not in the teeth - if you do that they will tear off. edit: Focused on the spine but with only the tips of the teeth touching, it's very different from western saws.

I understand what you are saying (I think) and have since replaced that saw. The replacement has had no trouble whatsoever and I have not changed my technique.

I really suggest that you contemplate how you place your force if not even visualize how such a thin saw should be handled in order to cut very hard woods. Jarrah is a bit over the top for a replaceable saw with a softwood setting though.

I agree. These saws probably need some clarification when they are sold as to what they should be used for eg softwood only.

This saw is intended for hardwoods. Although only those woods they think are hard in America! Not a flush cut saw though! But I have never seen saws specifically for hardwoods advertised in Australia! They are from Gyokucho 10" Hardwood Saw <!05> - The Japan Woodworker Catalog

Groggy, have you flush cutting using the teeth at the toe? I'm wondering if the short spine makes the heel of the saw just rigid enough to cause this damage to the teeth.

Mark, I am reasonably sure now that the saw was a bad one. I replaced the blade and it is fine. I also spoke to CT in Brisbane and, after discussing it with them, went to the trouble of packaging the broken blade and sending it to them. They did not even bother to reply.

Originally Posted by tea lady

This saw is intended for hardwoods. Although only those woods they think are hard in America! Not a flush cut saw though! But I have never seen saws specifically for hardwoods advertised in Australia! They are from Gyokucho 10" Hardwood Saw <!05> - The Japan Woodworker Catalog

Hi Tea Lady,

There's at least 3 Japanese saws, specifically made for hardwoods.

One is that one there, and few of it's similar brethren.

Another is the Z Saw '250 Hardwood'. Says right on the packet "suitable for; Ipe, Ebony, Quince (%$#%$ hard, orange ebony), oak, elm, etc."

Yet another is the Gyokucho #372 Dozuki. Again, says right on the packet "For cutting dovetails/for fine cutting in a variety of materials", which loosely translates as Plywood, composites, any tree wood, etc. Actually says something similar on their website.

These three (and a few others) are purpose made for hardwoods, and shouldn't have any trouble with anything you can throw at them. I'd give links to where you can buy them, but to do so would be tooting my own horn and I don't do that kinda thing and anywhere else is likely to be inside Japan, and they won't send anything to you.

Especially that last dozuki.

Google it if you want, saves me an ethical quandary.


Yes, they will easily deal with whatever mythical Australian hardwood you want to try them with, since I've already done it or heard about it.

Stu, whose woken up in the morning by the unique aroma of eucalypt more than once before.

(Smells like cat's pee to me. )

Originally Posted by Schtoo

Hi Tea Lady,

There's at least 3 Japanese saws, specifically made for hardwoods.


These three (and a few others) are purpose made for hardwoods, and shouldn't have any trouble with anything you can throw at them. I'd give links to where you can buy them, but to do so would be tooting my own horn and I don't do that kinda thing and anywhere else is likely to be inside Japan, and they won't send anything to you.

Especially that last dozuki.

Google it if you want, saves me an ethical quandary.


Yes, they will easily deal with whatever mythical Australian hardwood you want to try them with, since I've already done it or heard about it.

Stu, whose woken up in the morning by the unique aroma of eucalypt more than once before.

(Smells like cat's pee to me. )

Its just that our "on shore" shops don't sell such thing. They just have the "normal" ones! Which seems weird to me. But hey! The machinations of marketing in Aus is always weird to me!

I love my Jap saws. Have an ongoing friendly argument with the teacher in my furniture making group about them. He doesn't like them. But we are working in pine cos we are only beginners, and everyone elses pieces have torn end grain anywhere they have done with a western saw! (Haven't done any harder wood myself yet! ) I do have a jap plane as well but I think he would have kittens (Or neko chan? ) if I bought that to class to use! Actually that might be fun!

Originally Posted by tea lady

Its just that our "on shore" shops don't sell such thing. They just have the "normal" ones!

FWIW, Nakaoka-san (330mate on eBay) recommends modifying replaceable blade Japanese saws, as he outlines here. This modification won't convert a softwood tooth profile into a hardwood tooth profile, but would make the teeth a little less fragile.

PS - the images don't load inside the page for me so I have to right click on each image and open in separate tabs or windows.
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