Thread: help about japanese plane blade

No problem, Javier. What you mean to say is "temper." See definitions 5 and 6 here:
Temper | Define Temper at Dictionary.com

You've been perfectly understandable. Don't worry about it. If you need help with a word, just ask. We're all friendly sorts.

hardering ( when you cool a steel very hot )

thanks a lot

Originally Posted by correntinos

thank a lot for your answer , in the video when the bladesmith temple for hardering the blade use ( first I think is clay but reading I read the japanese bladesmith use miso for templer the blade ) someone know if the miso is mistured whit other ingredients

thamks a lot
javier

Hi (shall we call you Javier?),

I wouldn't think something like miso would work because it would just burn up?

Clay of some type (I have a book on Japanese swordsmithing which describes the mixture as clay, charcoal powder, and pulverized stone [ohmura - a rough natural stone used in sharpening which keeps the clay from shrinking and cracking too much as it dries] in roughly equal parts), would serve to keep oxygen away from the steel surface and provide some insulation during the quench? (it does for swords [insulate], but I'm not sure if it has this function for tool making as well). The charcoal powder is said to help control the rate of heating and cooling, but doesn't explain how this would work. It would provide some carbon to possibly be available to be absorbed by the steel at the right temperature? Again, I'm not sure as the book doesn't explain.

Perhaps someone else knows more about the blacksmithing aspect.

yes you can sheets I know about the the clay formule for quench the japanese swords a bladesmith master in argentina use this formule but He put a bit of honey too , and the formule have diferent kind , for the hamon , y think for the tool like you said is different the formule , I think is whit miso but I dont have the ingredients to test the mixture ( I only know one of the ingredients is miso and the other is salt )

thank a los for your tolerance

Hi Javier

Miso is soy bean paste, I mostly know it as a flavoured soup -- think water -- but there's no reason that a much thicker "soup" could be made and used as a quench bath.

thanks but is miso used ?????

I don't know

I've heard of blacksmiths using urine to quench sword blades,
there's nothing I know of that would make a miso soup unsuitable

However, the type of steel and its temperature prior to quenching are more important and almost entirely dependant upon the skill of the blacksmith

Re: "I wouldn't think something like miso would work because it would just burn up?"

A Japanese client who sells antiques (including much old fire-fighting equipment) told me that every woman in every house in Japan used to keep a spare (large) pot of miso going in case of fire: when a fire broke out, the community would go out and seal the doors to their kura with miso, and the kura never burned down.

Now, I have no idea how much hyperbole there is in that story, but apparently miso has tremendous fire-resistant properties.

thanks a lot for your anwers

good greeting for all


javier

Originally Posted by ian

Hi Javier

Miso is soy bean paste, I mostly know it as a flavoured soup -- think water -- but there's no reason that a much thicker "soup" could be made and used as a quench bath.

I can see the miso as a quench medium, but I think the reference here (unless I'm mistaken) to the use of a clay mixture, is applied to the blade before its heated to hardening temperature. That's why I think miso (even if dry) would not survive because its a combustible material. Its possible that miso is part of the mixture and like the charcoal powder for swords, acts in some way within the mixture because it is combustible and a source of some modifying action. I wish I knew more about it.

Its a problem perhaps because we are not reading from the same book(s).

I re-watched the video on making kanna and noticed the smith did use a sen, but it only showed him doing so on the omote (front side). Also, any hammer work(beyond the forging stages), and the forming of the ura and inscribing his kanji was all done in the annealed state (as would be expected). When he applied the liquid just prior to hardening (although not shown, the liquid paste would be allowed to dry), it was a very thin layer, so likely just to keep the hagane (edge steel) from oxidizing in the fire and then when quenched, prevents the bubbles in the water from insulating areas of the blade and causing differential cooling (I think it would). The part where he's taking the kanna out of a blackish liquid I think would have been the tempering stage (the liquid - oil? - would have been heated and now cooled in the video. I wish I could understand the explanation. I notice too, that he does ura-dashi (tapping out) I'm guessing because of distortion in the surface caused by the quenching or because the initial hollow grind on the ura went right past the edge at that stage. Lastly, he is passing the ura over a stone at the very end which I think is a flat stone and he's just defining the flats around the hollow. I know many kanna sold new leave that entirely up to the new owner (along with sharpening the edge, refining the rough bevel and grinding the mimi [ears]).

Does that all make sense?

Steve

Yep!

yes sheets it s very sense yours words, I try to made a miso paste , but whit cold water but I can do a paste similar to the video , I will try cooking miso whit salt , Ithink if the japanese blacksmith paint the blade whit miso paste , they try to absorb the change of temperature ( 800 c a 60 c to prevent distortion in the blade ), Ithink in the video they dont use charcoal (if the use the paste will be black as the cly used in the katana sharp ) I try again cooking the miso whit salt and I will tell you the results


thank a lot al the helps is welcome

thanks a lot javier

Makes sense to me Steve, from what I know secondhand from others.

....

Originally Posted by correntinos

yes sheets it s very sense yours words, I try to made a miso paste , but whit cold water but I can do a paste similar to the video , I will try cooking miso whit salt , Ithink if the japanese blacksmith paint the blade whit miso paste , they try to absorb the change of temperature ( 800 c a 60 c to prevent distortion in the blade ), Ithink in the video they dont use charcoal (if the use the paste will be black as the cly used in the katana sharp ) I try again cooking the miso whit salt and I will tell you the results


thank a lot al the helps is welcome

thanks a lot javier

I agree, the colour of the paste would be much darker if charcoal was part of the mix. It would be interesting to know what the paste is made of.

Steve