Thread: Japanese Dovetail Chisel

Hi Wendy,

Do you have any information specific to Japanese Dovetail Chisels?
What is the nomi title for them?

Have you visited my HP? You can check out a set of cool Tasai nomi, specially designed for dovetail making! Male and Female.

http://www.geocities.com/soatoz/nomi..._Dovetail.html

I am asking another maker from Miki if he can make it a bit cheaper since Tasai's are very expensive, but so far he's tried twice and they look terrible (made the neck way too thin), I can't possibly sell it. Kunikei is trying now, but I haven't received them yet.

It seems these chisels are extremely hard to make. Michio (Tasai) is just amazingly dexterous (he's now gained the national licence of swordsmith after 8 years of training!) maybe only Michio can manage.

I don't know where to start with them so would appreciate any help. I haven't used any dovetail chisel yet, but every time I see one I just know it's what I'm looking for, just for cutting dovetails by hand.

The one for female are not sold elsewhere (unless they see my design and order to Tasai) and it is called ichou nomi (ginkyo in Japanese is ichou. The fan shape lookes like ginkyo leaf).

The one for male, strictly speaking this one isn't sold elsewhere either (the ones sold elsewhere, the corner isn't sharp, so although called dovetail chisel, can't be used to make dovetail) and is called ari-tsuki nomi (ari is dovetail in Japanese). To make the corner sharp, it takes one more extra step, so it is more expensive. Another blacksmith in Miki called Takahashi makes this chisel, but the bevel (the sides) are ground after the hardening, so there is no black film (the bevel is shiny!!!). I didn't like that, so I asked Michio-san to gring the bevel first and then harden.

Yes, I've searched, but that has confused me even more than before

Hahaha, yeah, as I wrote above, none of the generally retailed so called dovetail chisels are fit to make dovetails. That's why I designed it, but sadly no one has ordered them yet! Maybe I haven't explained the difference from usual "bachi nomi" and "shinogi nomi" enough.... Or just simply to expensive. I don't know.

One American guy, who is now a very good friend of mine (his family are planning on coming over soon), when he first saw these chisels he contacted me right away, but for some reason I didn't receive his mail for weeks, and he thought, quote "I just thoght when I did'nt hear back from you that I was some kind of lame american you did'nt want to deal with. In case you havent noticed we are not the most popular country in the world right now, so hopefolly you see why I jumped to conclusions." He's just one funny guy, I enjoy so much talking to him. Anyway, since he "jumped to the conlusion", he ordered them to another vendor who's selling tools from Japan in English. Maybe I should sue bigpond for losing a business chance. Hahaha~~~

Speak to you again Wendy.

PS.
Nice to know there are lady woodworkers in Oz as well! I had two contacts from US but so far only one apart from you from Ozland.

Hi Soatoz

Great info - Thanks! I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more 'dumb' questions, just so I can be very clear about this subject. If I'm going to go for such an investment in chisels, then I want to be 100% sure about it. Funny thing to say, considering how much of this I am basing on pure gut feeling. But, my instincts haven't been too far wrong yet on just about anything to do with woodwork and tools, so here goes


Is ari nomi the name for 'standard' Japanese dovetail chisels, the triangular bevel blade like this? http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...72&cat=1,41504 (standard in my definition being like these ones )

So, male dovetail chisel is ari-tsuki nomi and female dovetail chisel is ari-ichou nomi, and general reference to dovetail chisels would be ari nomi?

Thanks for the direct link to the ari nomi (what is the plural for two or more ari nomi?) I hadn't found that browsing your site.

Please do keep me informed on the progress of these special nomi-s. They are very interesting!!

Cheers
Wendy

My impression was that westerners call the shinoji style chisels "dovetail" because they look like dovetails, or the pins at least. How are the shinoji style used in Japan?

Also, I'd have bought a couple of Tasai's dovetail chisels if they came in smaller sizes. I understand the problems with making very small versions, but it's the very small versions I particularly need.

How do Tasai's dovetails compare with bachi nomi (Tasai custom made a 3/8" bachi nomi for me that I use in making dovetails) in actual use. Any photos?

Thanks,
Pam

Pam welcome to the Australian Forums. (I suspect your last name starts with N and ends with R?) . Your knowledge on chisels and hand tools generally will be a valued resource here. We are also lucky enough to have Soatoz as a valued contributor.

Again, welcome

Groggy
Moderator

Great info - Thanks! I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more 'dumb' questions,

Hey no way any of these or the ones before are dumb questoins at all! I bet so many people are finding this thread to be helpful. Hopefully I get a couple of orders of these magnificent chisels.

Funny, sometimes things that I didn't expect to sell very well (natural stones) sell very well, and things that I thought would sell madly (these chisels) don't sell too well. I guess these chisels are too specialized in purpose.

just so I can be very clear about this subject.

Of course.

If I'm going to go for such an investment in chisels, then I want to be 100% sure about it.

In time I'm sure you'll get used to the price of these chisel, because Japanese chisels from well known blacksmiths are more expensive compared to Euro top quality chisels to start with. The two major reasons for this price difference are, 1. J chisels are basically fully handmade, 2. they are laminated (more time and effort spent).

Funny thing to say, considering how much of this I am basing on pure gut feeling. But, my instincts haven't been too far wrong yet on just about anything to do with woodwork and tools, so here goes

Bring it on!

Is ari nomi the name for 'standard' Japanese dovetail chisels, the triangular bevel blade like this? http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...72&cat=1,41504 (standard in my definition being like these ones )

Hahaha, this one is the one I was talking about that can't be used for dovetail making. Like Pam says above, these are called Shinogi (not Shinoji) nomi because of the shape, and these strictly speaking cannot be used for dovetail making, if you want no space at all between your joints, because the corner isn't sharp as you can see.

So, male dovetail chisel is ari-tsuki nomi and female dovetail chisel is ari-ichou nomi, and general reference to dovetail chisels would be ari nomi?

Mmmm, in Japanese there's no differenciating in singular and plural, so this is an English question. I guess ari-nomis?

Thanks for the direct link to the ari nomi (what is the plural for two or more ari nomi?) I hadn't found that browsing your site.

Oh good.

Please do keep me informed on the progress of these special nomi-s. They are very interesting!!

Thanks.

Oh! Hi Pam.

Good to see you in Oz WW forum.

My impression was that westerners call the shinoji style chisels "dovetail" because they look like dovetails, or the pins at least. How are the shinoji style used in Japan?

Hmmm, probably people use them for corners, but I always wonder if they don't mind the 1 to 1.5mm thick corners of these chisels.

Also, I'd have bought a couple of Tasai's dovetail chisels if they came in smaller sizes. I understand the problems with making very small versions, but it's the very small versions I particularly need.

The ones for female dovetail, I discussed with Michio-san if he can go narrower (like 6mm), but couldn't clear the toughness problem around the neck. Go thinner and it'll just snap if something goes wrong.

How do Tasai's dovetails compare with bachi nomi (Tasai custom made a 3/8" bachi nomi for me that I use in making dovetails) in actual use. Any photos?

The angle of both corners are different. Bachi-nomi in my oppinion the angle is a bit too big to make dovetail sockets. The ones shown on my HP are made to order with the various angles specified. I am hoping my friend mentioned above is getting a proper one from the other shop, because they probably don't have the angle datas. Maybe Michio-san might have suggested the angles provided from me, and in that case it should be fine.

I don't have any photos, but I'll try to upload the photos when I get the time.

Thanks,

Anytime. Oh, BTW, the 60mm you know what is almost ready~~~.

Originally Posted by soatoz

In time I'm sure you'll get used to the price of these chisel, because Japanese chisels from well known blacksmiths are more expensive compared to Euro top quality chisels to start with. The two major reasons for this price difference are, 1. J chisels are basically fully handmade, 2. they are laminated (more time and effort spent).

I may get used to the price, but my wallet won't, not short term anyway I do appreciate that they are specifically and specially handmade.

Hahaha, this one is the one I was talking about that can't be used for dovetail making. Like Pam says above, these are called Shinogi (not Shinoji) nomi because of the shape, and these strictly speaking cannot be used for dovetail making, if you want no space at all between your joints, because the corner isn't sharp as you can see.

Ah Ha!!!! now that part makes sense.

So, I suppose the next question is what iri nomi - matching tsuki and ichou - do you have on hand?

Any photos and sizes of thes particular nomi?

Thanks
Wendy

Hi Pam

May I ask for your opinon on nomi, how you find them when compared to western-style chisels?

I'm very interested in your opinion. I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with another fellow Female Woodworker last Saturday who also uses nomi and so I'm wondering if there is a trend here perhaps?

thanks
Wendy

Originally Posted by Groggy

Pam welcome to the Australian Forums. (I suspect your last name starts with N and ends with R?) . Your knowledge on chisels and hand tools generally will be a valued resource here. We are also lucky enough to have Soatoz as a valued contributor.

Again, welcome

Groggy
Moderator

Thanks, Gorggy. Soatoz introduced me to this forum a couple of months ago, but I've just been lurking and studying.

Pam

Originally Posted by soatoz

The angle of both corners are different. Bachi-nomi in my oppinion the angle is a bit too big to make dovetail sockets. The ones shown on my HP are made to order with the various angles specified. I am hoping my friend mentioned above is getting a proper one from the other shop, because they probably don't have the angle datas. Maybe Michio-san might have suggested the angles provided from me, and in that case it should be fine
....

Anytime. Oh, BTW, the 60mm you know what is almost ready~~~.

Thanks, So, I wasn't expecting the 60mm for a couple or three months yet. What a pleasant surprise.

I've included a link to Tomohito-san's listing for my chisel so you can check out the angles, etc. So far it's working fine for me, but I haven't given it any huge tests.

http://www.japantool-iida.com/_itycm...148824599.html

Pam

Originally Posted by rufflyrustic

Hi Pam

May I ask for your opinon on nomi, how you find them when compared to western-style chisels?

I'm very interested in your opinion. I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with another fellow Female Woodworker last Saturday who also uses nomi and so I'm wondering if there is a trend here perhaps?

Hi, Wendy, welcome to woodworking and Japanese tooldom. Laurie King, the author who has written a Sherlock Holmes takeoff starring Mary Russell, also wrote a book called "Folly." The heroine is a woodworker who uses Japanese chisels. Now there's not too much about using these tools, but it's kind of cool, and a great story about a female woodworker building a house on an island. The woodworking women I know/know of use power tools, so I don't think this is a trend in the USA.

I like a lot of western chisels (new: Dastra, Two Cherries, Pfeil; old laminated like Witherby, Swan, Addis, Herring), but I love my Japanese chisels. I don't have unlimited funds to spend, so I seldom buy sets, instead focusing on those sizes and types that I need. It's much easier now with ebay, Tomohito, So, Hida, and JWW, in that I can order and receive in a week or so; therefore my work isn't usually held up because of a missing tool. I made the mistake of buying an initial set of oire nomi from Woodcraft, only to find out through experience that once I had all the speciality chisels I needed, there was no need to have oire nomi at all.

Hope that helps.

Pam

Hi Pam,

Thanks for the book reference. It looks very interesting.

Japanese Tooldom - I like that phrase

Good point about buying just the chisels needed. I'm only just starting to really use my odds & sodds collection, but not enough yet to say what I like and why. I did, however, use the one nomi I do have yesterday and it was indeed a joy to use.

cheers
Wendy

Hi Pam

Welcome! (We are old friends, going far back it seems to me these days - or is that because my memory doesn't ).

May I ask for your opinon on nomi, how you find them when compared to western-style chisels?

Wendy

There is an important difference between dedicated Western dovetail chisels and most Japanese versions.

There are only two modern/new Western chisels chisels that I know that can be used as is for dovetails and have the ability to pare against the tail wall. These are the LN bench chisels and the Blue Spruce detail/dovetail chisels. Both of these are bevelled to the very edge of their sides. All others have a slight wall. Even my favourite Berg paring chisels are so, although this is very slight in their case.

Here are my Blue Spruce. Look carefully at the sides and you will see that they are actually concave:

With the exception of the nomi that So showed you, I have not seen others that are ground as the LN and BS above. I have Koyamaichi and Matsumura dovetails and they all have a side walls (The Koyamaichi's are quite small but still present). In the case of the Matsumura I ground the sides.

Here are the Matsumura (two on the left) before grinding:

I must point out that, firstly, I use my Blue Spruce for paring, and I use the Japanese for choping waste. Secondly, when choping, my technique is to do so in the centre of the tail, then pare away the edges. This way one does not bruise the side walls.

It is possible to turn any chisel into a dedicated dovetail chisel. I have (carefully) ground the sides of a few (including one you now have, although that could be ground even more). One must be careful not to damage the temper. Perfect dovetail chisels are nice but not necessary (yeah, who'se going to believe me on that one ).

Some will argue that you can pare dovetails with a square sided firmer chisel, and I agree that you can - just that it is more difficult to do so. What then makes it easier are skew- and fishtail chisels to clean things up.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the welcome, Derek, this is a really nice place.

I think there are a lot of western chisels that will do dovetails (not real sure to what a "tail wall" refers, unless you're talking about the base of the dovetails), they're called fishtails and skews. Piles of them are available in new and old.

Pam