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Thread: Japanese Kitchen Knives
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5th October 2013, 12:42 AM #16
I'm sure Pam will appreciate the clarification, but I'm not thinking you are misleading anyone Paul, just sorting your way through what can be complex.
As soon as I think I have sorted a few things out I then find a lot more that I don't know or understand.
Like the 100 different knives the Japanese have, each with their own name and intended use.
And that's before you start on the different cutting steels and claddings.
Then you have to sharpening them... but let's not go there, now.Stay sharp and stay safe!
Neil
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5th October 2013, 02:31 AM #17Senior Member
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For sure, Paul. Tomonori has a santoku as small as 120mm; so then I took a trip through the knives in house and found 3 short paring knives, 2 of which just need new handles; so that's not a significant factor as of now. I bought a 165mm nakiri ( Japanese Tanaka Blue Steel Nakiri JP Chef Knife Kitchen Traditional Tools | eBay ), but the santoku are all auctions, so it will take a couple of days. Amazing what you can accomplish in a few hours, as long as you've got the help of a couple of friends. You guys are amazing.
Neil, I scanned that list, but it was really too much for me right now, last thing I want is to introduce more choice right now.
Pam
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5th October 2013, 10:46 AM #18
Pam
Good that you have taken the plunge. I have bought from this seller both through the "Buy it Now" system and through auction. I have never paid more than the initial listing price at auction. If somebody has already bid, I wait until the auction finishes and it is re-listed. If I am outbid, I let it go and follow the same policy for it to be re-listed.
Of course this is fine if you are not in a hurry, but it has worked for me each time. Basically, without being an economist, the laws of supply and demand are in our favour .
Good luck.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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5th October 2013, 02:08 PM #19
Good value buy there, Pam. I expect you will be very happy with the blue steel edge.
That traditional knife design was found in almost every kitchen in Japan for many generations. It is the Niigata design. There was a slightly different design around Kyoto. My Japanese sister-in-law can remember her grandmother using the one that she still has in her kitchen, handed down via her mother.
Care of that black cladding (soft wrought iron) is an extra factor with these knives. It doesn't like to be left sitting wet for any length of time. A rinse and quick wipe dry before putting aside works well. The black skin gives some protection. The ground soft iron is more vulnerable and the lamination line is always the most prone to oxidisation.
If you don't like the build up of oxidisation along the blade path between sharpenings, some kitchen cleaning paste/powder (eg Jif down here) will quickly clean that off if not left to etch too deep. An application of oil (Camellia or medical mineral oil, if you have it) also helps. I also oil those raw wood handles with medical mineral or Camellia oil before using for the first time.
My Shirataka deba has that traditional black iron cladding and with the above care it is travelling well after a few years of very regular use.Stay sharp and stay safe!
Neil
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5th October 2013, 02:25 PM #20
Thanks Neil
Everything I ever wanted to know about Japanese cutting edge technology, but was afraid to ask . That's a good site. I had not considered the Niigata design before and while I bought two laminated blue steel knives for my son such weapons are missing from out own arsenal: I mean kitchen .
I wonder if SWMBO would like a new JP knife for Xmas . I hope Pam hasn't bought up the last of them.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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5th October 2013, 07:23 PM #21Hewer of wood
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A very informative thread as always here.
Yes, I have a petty knife and a nakiri in VG10 made by Tanaka and bought from 330mate (where did he get that name from?! sounds like a firearm calibre). They are fairly low-care good all-rounders that came at a bargain price for Damascus figure.
My first JP knife was a Shun Classic Santoku in VG10. I'm sorry now that I sold it as it would've been a good transition knife for other members of the household.
Neil put me onto Watanabe knives and the Gyuto blue steel is the best tool I own. It looks like nothing special at all but I've nick-named it the 'Fireblade'.Cheers, Ern
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5th October 2013, 07:50 PM #22Hewer of wood
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Back on topic ... the triangular handles fall nicely into the palm (Tanakas in my case).
I'd imagine a pro chef might find that important as the feel reduces the need to look.
I'm not anywhere in that ballpark.Cheers, Ern
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5th October 2013, 08:59 PM #23
Ok. I'm doing pirouettes. Well not quite, but my head's spinning and the rest of me is not really up to the task.
I had a quick wade through Neil's 100 blades. Then I went to Ern's Watanabe blades. Nice. I like the look of this in particular. The santoku and nakiri in stainless damascus with a blue steel core really appeals:
All purpose knives | Kurouchi Santoku and Nakkiri knife 165mm
Without ever having tried the triangular handles I'm a convert. In browsing the Watanabe site I noticed an item called a necklace knife . I now have a much more healthy regard for Japanese women. I thought they were only able to kick the #### out me. Now I realise they can carve me up into little pieces as well . Actually for a few moments I had this image of graceful women in evening gowns with miniature samurai swords dangling from their necks.
Further investigation left me a little disappointed and my mental image of an oriental Lara Croft has pretty much died a death. It appears it is just a name for a knife in a pouch, which may be worn on a belt. I used to have an Old Timer that may have been a similar concept. I lost it so perhaps I should have worn it around the neck .
Now for a serious question: Blue steel - White steel and the difference is? Sharpness, edge retention?
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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6th October 2013, 11:55 AM #24Hewer of wood
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Neil's the expert here.
My two bob's worth ....
White and blue steel are made by Hitachi and named after the colour of the paper they came in.
Blue is harder than white so will hold an edge longer but takes more care in use (as it's more brittle) and more sharpening effort. Stones like the Sigma Power Select II are needed for sharpening; they're designed for hard steels.
As Neil-san has said, these fine edges are for slicing only.Cheers, Ern
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6th October 2013, 12:05 PM #25Hewer of wood
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Also there's a downside with Damascus figure. To reveal it blades are I believe acid-etched. That may make the 'grain' slightly porous and so the figure can stain by the slurry on a stone and it's a sod to clean them up. To prevent this an application of metal lacquer is needed from time to time.
Cheers, Ern
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6th October 2013, 11:53 PM #26
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7th October 2013, 06:53 PM #27SENIOR MEMBER
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There is a street near Namba that is basically all pro kitchen supplies. Plenty of knives available, at all prices. Heading down there next weekend. Put you orders in haha
Some of the knives I've gotten from the local Cainz et al are really quire good no nonsense daily use tools that hold a good edge from #1000/#3000 combination stone. Best kitchen knives $20 can buy in my opinion and stone is $17.Semtex fixes all
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8th October 2013, 01:09 AM #28Senior Member
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Got both the knives I wanted (santoku blue and nakiri blue hammered black with hou JP handles) and a couple of cheaper natural stones for the kitchen (Binsui 500 and Iyoto high medium), should all be here in a couple or three weeks when the fun will begin. Many thanks to Paul and Neil, and also rssr for the warning on rusting damascus, otherwise I would have probably gone for that damascus santoku since it was such a huge discount.
Pam
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8th October 2013, 07:28 AM #29
Ern
Is this tendency with all Damascus? Does it apply to stainless as well as non stainless?
We have another Damascus SS chef knife (brand unknown) which after about four years has just started to exhibit a pronounced line along the first lamination up from the cutting edge. I had thought it was probably starting to "de-laminate" possibly because it is faulty. However, after your comments, it may just be stain. I must have a look with a loupe.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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8th October 2013, 01:28 PM #30Hewer of wood
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The worst was on my Shun Santoku Classic (VG10). It's a risk with any Damascus figure depending on how you sharpen. The lacquer tip was from NeilS. (Pam, this was staining from ceramic whetstone sharpening, not rusting).
With the Watanabe blue steel gyotu this winter I got a line of simple corrosion at the cladding junction; was away from home for a while and had just been treating it with Olive Oil. Not a good choice. Camellia oil works better. Neil has posted elsewhere about using Jiff or similar for this kind of problem. I've been playing with a 1" belt sander for sharpening, and on this occasion fitted it with a leather belt charged with green crayon and it worked a treat to take the corrosion out.Cheers, Ern
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