Thread: Japanese Kitchen Knives

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

...
If I am totally honest, I would have like to have seen a Santoku knife there instead of the paring knife. The Zhen Santoku we have is an absolute delight to use and I think that to western eyes it has a quirky look, but it was starting to blow the budget as it was much more expensive than the Zhen paring knife...

Great looking set, Paul. I know next to nothing about Japanese kitchen knives, but I'm very interested and have been perusing ebay to see a santoku knife. This description seems to cover a wide variety of styles (allowing for seller ignorance, here). Could you tell me your definition and why it's better than a paring knife?

Thanks,
Pam

Hi Bushmiller,

You have done a nice job on the set. I would have liked to see the finished knives themselves.

I do have one criticism and I hope you take it in the constructive and respectfull manner it is meant. To my eye you have spoilt the project by the finish. I think an oiled finish would be much nicer. I don't think you would see a high gloss finish on any Japanese set.

Only my opinion.

Regards,
Gadge

Originally Posted by Pam

This description seems to cover a wide variety of styles (allowing for seller ignorance, here). Could you tell me your definition and why it's better than a paring knife?

Thanks,
Pam

Pam

The knives are both quite small and consequently used for delicate work, as opposed to chopping and carving with the chef knife, but the santoku with it's slightly longer and more robust blade I think is more versatile. For example, the paring knife would be your weapon of choice to peel an apple, but but if you wanted to slice an apple the blade is a little too short whereas the santoku will do both jobs. I would also look at the Japanese Petty chef, which is a similar size but more pointed.

As with all knives, they are made in a variety of sizes so this can be a little

As we have both the paring and santoku knives from the Zhen range I can afford to be picky, but if I had to choose between one or the other I would definitely go for the santoku. I have to say that two years ago I had not even heard of a santoku. There's none so righteous as the converted .

For size comparison these are the some of the knives I "handled" previously, the zhen chef knife (210mm) and santoku (120mm):

Zhen knives second 003.jpg

These are some others with their Japanese handles for style; chef knife top (210mm)and bottom (270mm), deba (single bevel 120mm) on the left and petty chef (165mm)on the right :

JP Knives 001.jpg

and lastly the Zhen paring (85mm) and santoku (120mm) knives:

Bull oak zhen knives 001.jpg

Just for information, I am fairly certain the Zhen knives are available to you in the States from Amazon. I regard those knives as an intermediate step between western knives and the full blown Japanese knife made from blue or white steel, probably in the laminated tradition.

The Zhen knives and the japanese chef knife in my first post are made from VG10 stainless steel, which is alleged to have extra toughness as well as being very hard (RC 63). They are still prone to chipping and should not be used on hard material (bone etc).

I hope this helps, but I have to say I am very far from an expert in these matters and other forum members are much better qualified to offer advice. I would encourage them to do so.

Regards
Paul

Thanks, Paul. I've long been a customer of Tomonori-san, so I finally gave up looking at everyone else's offerings. He's got blue and stainless santoku, western and JP handles (I much prefer the JP). I find the stainless a strange choice for good knives, in the US that would be a lower end thing. My kitchen knives are a few stainless from the first set I bought when setting up my first domicile 40 some years ago and a lot of O1 that were a gift from my MIL who worked a lot of years for a knife sharpener in Chicago. The O1's are my favorite, but if stainless works, maybe I should get them out and invest in new JP type handles and tune ups.

However, it seems to be the paring knives that break, and I've always bought small, cheap versions; so the idea of a santoku is very appealing. Would you recommend stainless over blue? And why doesn't Tomonori have any white steel?

Pam

Nice combination, Bushmiller, that Bull Oak (buloke) and blade steel together.

I have bought Japanese knives with western style handles for older people that have used western style knives all of their lives. With a western style handle the knife wasn't too much of a leap from what was familiar to them. For the same reason I went with V10 blades as they had also become used to stainless steels.

But, for myself, I have become quite fond of the traditional Japanese handle. Particularly the way the shape of the handle, which is more pronounced from some makers, fits in the hand.

Your thread reminded me of a project of mine that has sat uncompleted for some time.

Some years ago I bought an very old nakirri with a single bevel, a style not commonly made now, to see if I liked that style of knife. It came with a split in the handle which subsequently broke right open. I set about making a new handle for it but never got around to fitting it.

The old handle had quite a pronounced ridge, which I accentuated in the replacements that I made.

handle grip - top.jpg

I like the way they fitted in my hand.

Here are two of handles that I made for the nakirri.

Three views of same two handles.

Two handles - image 1.jpg

Two handles - image 2.jpg

Two handles - image 3.jpg

One is buloke and a forgotten wood from fruit or nut trees at the 'ferule' end.

The other some sort of purpleheart (oxidises towards brown over time) and another forgotten wood at the 'ferule' end.

I was still deciding which one to use, and that was as far as I got.

No finish on them yet as epoxy will be used to help set the blade in the handle.

Then just an oil, like Kunos Natural Oil Sealer No 244.

I'm not about to go into production myself, too busy woodturning when I do get the time to do that, but I reckon there is a good sideline for someone on this forum making nice handles for good Japanese knives. I know my local gallery that I sell my woodturning through would jump at the chance to have a cabinet of knives with speccy Australian wooden handles on display. Check out Stefan's custom knife handles for the type of handle that is in demand from J-knife enthusiasts.

Apologies for butting into your thread, Bushmiller, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to help you reconnect another J-knife thread (which some of us love) back into the broader interests of the forum.

Pam

Knives are such a personal matter, I'm not sure that we can advise anyone else with confidence which knives they should get, only indicate, as Bushmiller has done, what works for them and why.

Having purchased dozens of J-knives over the years for myself and others I probably now know which knives I would purchase, and in which order, if I had to start from scratch again, which was recently very close to being the case, so not quite so hypothetical.

Here is my re-purchase list, in order.


If just one knife: A Santoku or Gyuto.

The pointier tip of the gyuto is a western design intended for finer meat trimming tasks, something that needs to be done less often now, at least in my kitchen. One disadvantages of the finer tip is that it is prone to stabbing things and chipping off. The harder steel in a good J-knife will be far more prone to chipping than a good western knife with the same profile.

Some people like the gyuto over the santoku for no other reason than the 'professional chef' look, but do not take into account the curve on the edge of the gyuto requires more skill to use and more skill/effort to sharpen (on a waterstone) than the gentler curved sentoku.

I find the straighter edge on the santoko is better for slicing and (gentle) chopping actions.

The more pronounced curve on the gyuto is good for a rocking action, if you like to mince that way.

If I could only buy one J-knife I would probably go for a santoku. But, if there was a better quality gyuto available for the same price as the santoku I would go for that. So, not much in it and quality would win out in the end.


If just two knives: Knife 1 + a Deba

I would hate having to use Knife 1 for cutting up the tough stuff, like pumpkin and corn cobs.

For that I need a 'heavy' duty knife with a lot of weight and a thick spine which allows the free hand to comfortably press down on the back of the knife with the heel of the hand to drive through the cut and control the knife. The cutting zone for this use is up near the handle.

These knives do have a fine tip like the gyotu, so this is provided with this knife if it is needed for fine trimming work, however, its weight is not so good for that task.

Their more pronounced curve is also good for a rocking action, if you like to mince that way, and you are missing that with your selection of Knife 1. The extra weight is good for that.

The deba is typically single bevelled. There is no equivalent in western knives, so they can take some getting used to.

You buy them as right or left hand. If you have both left and right handers in the kitchen, that is an issue.

I like the weight to be up near the one that Ern currently has up for sale over in the Marketplace, here.


If just three knives: Knife 1&2 + a Petite

It's a petite gyuto.

It allows you to do the fine trimming without the weight of the gyuto. And it's a smaller knife for smaller cutting tasks when you don't want a long knife blade unnecessarily getting in the way.


If just four knives: The above + a Nakirri (if I went with a gyuto instead of a sentoku for Knife 1)

I like the straight edge of the nakirri for 'slicing' vegetables, etc. But, I wouldn't bother if I had gone with the santoku as Knife 1. If I had gone with a gyuto, then I would definitely add the nakirri as Knife 4.


That would be about it for me.

I wouldn't buy a paring knife made by any of the J-bladesmiths. The style that they make doesn't work for me. I buy these manufactured cheapies. Right design, rotten steel!

As I don't regularly cut up fish, I don't need a special knife for that. Knives 1-3 will do the job.

I don't need a bread saw, the deba is better for that and doesn't make all those bread crumbs.

My preference is for blue steel for my cutting edges. They do stay sharper for longer so I don't mind the fraction more time that they may take to sharpen. But, a well made white steel blade will perform almost as well and is easier to sharpen.

There is a significant drop off in performance between the blue and white steels and VG10. Where there is a blue or white steel option I avoid VG10 and the like.

Damascus is purely aesthetic. It adds nothing to the performance. Personally I prefer to see the hammer marks on a hand-forged knife, but gift recipients like it.

I do keep an old set of western knives in the bottom drawer for when most visitors get into the kitchen...

Now I know where to find my re-purchase list, if and when I need it.

Apologies for the long post

Originally Posted by Gadge

Hi Bushmiller,

You have done a nice job on the set. I would have liked to see the finished knives themselves.

I do have one criticism and I hope you take it in the constructive and respectfull manner it is meant. To my eye you have spoilt the project by the finish. I think an oiled finish would be much nicer. I don't think you would see a high gloss finish on any Japanese set.

Only my opinion.

Regards,
Gadge

Right! That's it! I'm outa here!!

Only joking. As it happens I entirely agree. In fact the knife block has been particularly problematical and a gloss finish is unforgiving in the extreme. I work in a shed that has one side open and the weather (windy and dusty) has not been conducive to varnish finishes. Normally I shy away from a gloss finish, but for knife handles I have always felt it is more durable. More resistant to water.

Having said that, the rule in our house is the knives are never immersed in water, certainly never left in a sink of washing up (easy way to lose a finger) and not placed in a dishwasher so in some regards you could argue I am fussing needlessly. However, I will stick to the gloss finish on the handles as I don't know how the handles will be treated down the track. BTW pictures 7 and 8 in my original post show the finished knives. I'm not sure if that is what you meant.

On the block I am compromising and have flattened the varnish for the Nth time. I will put a couple of coats of matt varnish on, leave it for 48hours and then rub in some teak oil with steel wool. I have used this as a furniture finish in the past and is much more forgiving. I also, like you, prefer the satin sheen. There is no requirement for being water resistant.

I agree that the main body of the handle on a JP knife is normally a low sheen finish, although the collar is often a high gloss. In fact the knives I got for my son were just that. They were also the default end of the market as far as collars were concerned.

In my final defence I was attempting to create a hybrid between the JP knife and an australian version.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Pam

Thanks, Paul. I've long been a customer of Tomonori-san, so I finally gave up looking at everyone else's offerings. He's got blue and stainless santoku, western and JP handles (I much prefer the JP). I find the stainless a strange choice for good knives, in the US that would be a lower end thing. My kitchen knives are a few stainless from the first set I bought when setting up my first domicile 40 some years ago and a lot of O1 that were a gift from my MIL who worked a lot of years for a knife sharpener in Chicago. The O1's are my favorite, but if stainless works, maybe I should get them out and invest in new JP type handles and tune ups.

However, it seems to be the paring knives that break, and I've always bought small, cheap versions; so the idea of a santoku is very appealing. Would you recommend stainless over blue? And why doesn't Tomonori have any white steel?

Pam

Pam

I was going to say what Neil said only he has done in much more detail, has based his comments on a far greater knowledge than mine and is much more eloquent to boot .

The only comments I would add are that kitchen tools are a personal thing so what is good for one person is useless for another. Sharpness and durability are something of a trade off. The blue and white steels are particularly fragile (brittle in fact), but even the VG 10 is not something to be unduly careless with, but it won't rust and that is why I stuck with stainless. The damascus look, as Neil said, is purely cosmetic but I think it looks great.

Blue steel (and white steel for that matter) are going to be potentially sharper than stainless, but they have to be carefully looked after. Mind you we have broken the tip off our stainless damascus chef's knife!

Like Neil, I really like the hammered look (with knives ) and with those styles they are normally laminated with softer steel on the outer faces protecting the hard core. My understanding is that blue steel is a superior grade to white steel, but is also less forgiving.

With the Santoku, there are different sizes available. Mine is at the shorter end at 120mm.

Regards
Paul

Neil

I love those handles of yours and they look ergonomic too. You must fit them to a knife .

Thank you for the link to Stefan's custom handles. Wow! If I'd seen those before I started this thread, I would not have had the nerve to post my efforts .

I might have to have a go at those one day as I can see where you derived your inspiration .

Thanks for the comprehensive run down on knives and don't concern yourself with "butting in," as I enjoy the way these JP threads develop. Just one question. I referred to a Santoku and I think you are calling it a Sentoku. Is this the same knife?

I agree with the use of a chefs knife in that it is frequently used for fast chopping of foods using a rocking motion against the knuckle of the fingers. It takes quite a skill to do it well and not one that I have.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Just one question. I referred to a Santoku and I think you are calling it a Sentoku. Is this the same knife?

Bushmiller

Same knife and you have the correct spelling.
I'm not sure where in my head that that spelling of mine came from...

On Stefan's handles, I first came across them on lots of wonderful Japanese kitchen knives on a website created by Zvi.

I was tempted to put a link to Zvi's website in my post, as such beautiful handles are best seen on equally beautiful Japanese knives.

BUT, Zvi's website is such a bad, bad, place for some of us to visit that I thought it safer to just point to Stefan's website. If there was a medically diagnosed disorder for obsessively collecting Japanese kitchen (and other) knives then they would probably call it Zvi's Syndrome. So, Zvi's Zknives website is not a palace where the idly interested or those with obsessive tendencies should go. However, if you fit comfortably in between those extremes, and love to look at (lots of) beautiful kitchen knives, mostly Japanese, and you have some spare time; you may enjoy a visit. But, you have been warned!

Here it is. Click on the thumbnail images for full size pics

That small print is to indicate that the website is of little importance for those who should avoid going there...

Wow, Paul and Neil, amazing block of information. I agree on Damascus, with one exception (chisels with very narrow shanks can benefit from twisted Dam strands), and I'm so glad I'm only looking for one knife. I tend to be much less serious about my cooking than about woodworking, probably some kind of old gender aversion; but I am a very good cook, in my own careless way, everyone's plates are usually returned empty. I just don't want it to look like I'm working at it.

I have a relatively small kitchen, adopted in the '80's as a real life test of just-in-time supply techniques (note: they work great), and now my main problem is keeping Jack from hoarding, buying in bulk, and buying crap.

I think I'll take inventory of my knives before buying more, do some tuneups, and the like; but I fully expect to give away a lot that will be replaced with the one santoku, blue steel in the absence of white. Anyone want a set of ginsu's we bought for a major move?

Thanks,
Pam

Originally Posted by Pam

Anyone want a set of ginsu's we bought for a major move?

Pam - I'll pass on the ginsu set.

Like you, we have a v. small kitchen, just 1 pace x 2 paces, so appreciated your comments.

On buying a santoku, at least you have the necessary waterstones ready to go.

You also have the necessary skills to make your own end-grain cutting board, if you don't have one already.

And, keep in mind that these knives last at least a lifetime, so don't delay too long or you won't get your money's worth...

If you have settled on a blue (or white) steel santoku, and when you are ready to go, have a look at this one that a certain ebay seller currently has on offer. He offers the same knife from time to time, so no rush. Ern (rssr) on this forum has and likes the knives he has from that bladesmith.

I got some of these from the same seller for my kids as their 'training wheels' J-knife. The edge steel is v. good for the price, but it oxidises very quickly, as does the soft iron cladding. It was a good test for the kids and when I could see that they had graduated looking after those they got given some better knives.

Disclaimer: I have no connection to the above seller; more like a disconnection!

The same knives are also available from other sellers.

eg Metalmaster

Originally Posted by NeilS

...On buying a santoku, at least you have the necessary waterstones ready to go.

You also have the necessary skills to make your own end-grain cutting board, if you don't have one already.

And, keep in mind that these knives last at least a lifetime, so don't delay too long or you won't get your money's worth...

If you have settled on a blue (or white) steel santoku, and when you are ready to go, have a look at this one that a certain ebay seller currently has on offer. He offers the same knife from time to time, so no rush. Ern (rssr) on this forum has and likes the knives he has from that bladesmith. ...

That's true, Neil, all three of the things you've listed. I love the looks of that damascus santoku, already had it in my watch list; but I'm more likely to buy a blue steel version. I'm also now interested in a nakiri, even if there's some duplication with a santoku, maybe.

I also wonder if I should sharpen that stainless set I still have before giving them away. Boy, this is going to clean up the utensil drawer, will come closer to getting all my knives on the magnetic holder.

Thanks,
Pam

I just knew this would happen . Following on from neil's post, I realise I have misled in a couple of areas.

The santoku knife I have waxed lyrical on is a shape (that's my interpretation) and is available in a variety of sizes. If it is to be used as an alternative to a paring knife you definitely need the smallest size available. If is to be used as a chef's knife go larger.

The first link Neil has supplied is for a 165mm knife, but if you read further down there is a 150mm version available, which for me would be the upper limit of a paring knife substitute.

The second listing is also a 165mm knife, but is available in several sizes between 120mm and 180mm. Incidently this is the same seller from whom I purchased. I love his english, but if you decide to buy from him, do be very specific with your instructions if they differ from the default listing.

The other area I misled in is the damascus steel. It is certainly not limited to stainless steel. The first Samurai swords were not stainless. In fact apart from the Samurai swords (by repute, not actually) my first contact with the damascus process was in the jewelry field. I knew a manufacturer who made silver rings in this way.

The Japanese blades are unbelievably sharp. Dare I say scary sharp.

Regards
Paul