Thread: Japanese knives.

Originally Posted by rsser

Neil, I've seen pics of Japanese knives in the Carba-tec catalogue. They look drop dead gorgeous. Is this what they call Damascus steel?

Yes, Ern, the second group of Japanese knives in the CT catalogue are made from Damascus metal, or mokume-gane (translation woodgrain) in Japanese.

In small knives like those in the catalogue it has no function other than aesthetics. As you probably know, originally it had the function in swords of allowing the very long hard thin (and brittle) cutting edge to be cushioned between multiple softer more flexible layers of iron.

All high quality Japanese knives (also chisels and plane blades) are still laminated to support the very harder cutting edge steel, but only three layers (soft, hard, soft) are needed to achieve this on two bevel knives. The additional forging required with mokume-gane adds extra cost above the basic three layers, without adding any functional benefit in terms of cutting performance or durability. However, having said that, I must admit that I have indulged myself and bought a few Damascus knives for the kitchen.

Should you be tempted, I wouldn't recommend those from the CT catalogue. They look too expensive for no-name knives. They do have kanji characters engraved into them, so will have an identified maker, but the fact that CT has not mentioned a name would make me very cautious. Would you buy a car from someone who wouldn't/couldn't tell you its make? There are better options, and if you are interested I can provide a few tips on what knives to start with and suggest some makers and sources in Japan.

If you like a good cutting edge, and you haven't done so already, you should try at least one good Japanese hand-forged kitchen knife, if and when you can afford it....

PS - see here for a little damasteel ...

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Thanks for the rundown Neil and the warning.

The patterns on those knife blades are remarkable.

Some makers' names would be welcome. I'll be in Hokkaido in Feb and can go looking.

Originally Posted by rsser

Some source names would be welcome. I'll be in Hokkaido in Feb and can go looking.

The main knife making areas are in Niigata and Gifu Prefectures on Honshu. There are also some other minor areas on Honshu, near Miki City and Tokyo. As far as I know there are none on Hokkaido.

You could probably buy retail from somewhere on Hokkaido, but will probably do just as well buying directly online from Australia. Some options:

Wantanabe - 6th generation knife maker in Sanjyo-city, Niigata Prefecture. I have and love his knives.

Japanesshefsknife.com - Widest selection of the top Japanese knife makers. Any of these knives will be very high quality, but start by looking at the knives under SPECIALS. Those Damascus knives by Tanaka, Saji and the Gekko series from JKC....what a feast!

330Mate - Japanese temple builder who also sells woodworking tools and knives. Has lower priced knives by Mr Tanaka.

So - Australian based Japanese seller of high end woodworking tools and knives. He has some of the very best knives, but have to be patient on response times.

Avoid white and blue steel blades (will rust) if you have not used them before.

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Originally Posted by NeilS

Should you be tempted, I wouldn't recommend those from the CT catalogue. They look too expensive for no-name knives. They do have kanji characters engraved into them, so will have an identified maker, but the fact that CT has not mentioned a name would make me very cautious. Would you buy a car from someone who wouldn't/couldn't tell you its make? There are better options, and if you are interested I can provide a few tips on what knives to start with and suggest some makers and sources in Japan.



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Not wanting to derail the thread but, I was looking at Hattori knives a while back and the ones in the CT catalogue look very similar to the HD series from hattori HD Series Japanese Knife,Japanese Kitchen Knife,Japanese Cutlery,Japanese Chef's Knives.Com
Although why you wouldn't advertise that if it was the case is beyond me!
I could be wrong though.....

Thanks Neil. Very interesting stuff.

Apart from the beauty of a laminated blade, is there any tech advantage over Western stainless knives?

Originally Posted by rsser

Apart from the beauty of a laminated blade, is there any tech advantage over Western stainless knives?

The Japanese VG10 stainless blade has some advantage over a European stainless blade. The VG10 stainless is denser and will harden up to Rockwell 61. That is why it is still usually laminated. Typically a VG10 blade can be sharpened to 16deg, whereas European knives are usually 20deg or over. The finer edge cuts easier. Being denser the VG10 will also give a sharper edge that will hold for longer.

However, there is no comparison between Japanese blue steel and European stainless. Blue steel can be hardened to Rockwell 64. On cutting performance and durability the blue steel wins outright, IMHO. I would sharpen a good European knife three times before having to sharpen a good Japanese blue steel knife with the same use, and the Japanese knife just feels sharper on the 'slice a ripe tomato' test.

But, there are some downsides to the blue steel. It is the brittlest of the blade metals, which is fine for slicing but not for chopping, and should only be used on something like an end-grain cutting board. Bones and frozen foods are also a hazard. Being a harder metal, it is also a bit harder to sharpen (but that wouldn't be an issue for woodturners ). The blue steel is also prone to tarnish if not wiped dry soon after each use. If none of that puts you off, at least go with a stainless steel outer layer(s) to reduce the higher maintenance involved with a blue steel edge.

A bit long winded, but hope you get the drift.

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A little more on the art of Japanese blade making

Thanks Neil. Appreciate your sharing your expertise.

Some time ago I had a couple of high carbon cooking knives and got used to looking after them. And even stainless isn't.

But as you say, sharpening isn't an issue. I've ordered a VG10 Santoku and will chase a VG10 Nakiri.

Hughie, my system couldn't open that file. It's an unmarked up html?

Originally Posted by rsser

Hughie, my system couldn't open that file. It's an unmarked up html?

Try this one Ern

Thanks DJ.

Sorry Ern , thanks DJ.

Woohoo, won a Tanaka VG10 Nakiri on the 330Mate auction.

The Santoku is a Shun Classic from the US.

How would they best be sharpened Neil? I can do 220 then 1000 grit on the whetstone, and have ordered a small waterstone with the Nakiri. Don't know how fine it'll be but assume it's for polishing the bevel.

Nothing much that I've got will measure knife bevels. I can go off what they come with but what do you aim for? Around 32 degrees included angle?

Originally Posted by rsser

Woohoo, won a Tanaka VG10 Nakiri on the 330Mate auction.

The Santoku is a Shun Classic from the US.

How would they best be sharpened Neil? I can do 220 then 1000 grit on the whetstone, and have ordered a small waterstone with the Nakiri. Don't know how fine it'll be but assume it's for polishing the bevel.

Nothing much that I've got will measure knife bevels. I can go off what they come with but what do you aim for? Around 32 degrees included angle?

Well done Ern, two good knives there. The Shuns are loved by the chefs. An excellent balance between cutting performance and ease of maintenance. Our family have a few Classics. Great knife. Sounds like you have also picked up a Tanaka at a good price. Nothing beats having a knife that is made by an individual bladesmith. The Nakiri is a beautiful knife for fine slicing.

Now, sharpening is a whole world of its own. Where to start? Perhaps not at all tonight after helping some friends polish off a bottle of '97 Rockford Basket Pressed Barossa Shiraz and a bottle of '99 Tim Adams Clare Valley Shiraz. Better left to a more sober moment.

Very interested to hear more detail on what stone you bought from Nakaoko san. How did he describe/rate it?

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Nothing special Neil. As an optional extra with the knife you could order one described as '40mm sq. Iyo water stone'.