Thread: Japanese waterstones

Hi from all at Mik International!

We find some of our customers don't know how to sharpen simply and effectively, and/or think it is a difficult and daunting art.

In fact it's not difficult when you know how, and its not complicated either, so we put together a kit of everything you need, including the Japanese Water Stones, to sharpen your flat bladed tools. Lately we have been calling it the Mik Deluxe Sharpening Kit. We also wrote a step by step tutorial and include it with the kit. With the kit anyone can produce a mirror polished edge that will shave the loose hairs off your arm.

We have been demonstrating the kit for years at wood shows and its a very popular demo and the kits sell well.

You can find it on page 51 of our catalogue, or under 'Sharpening Aids' in our web site.

Hope this helps.

Hey Mik,
Why would you want to shave off the loose hairs off your arm.....just wipe them off mate.... theyre allready loose......
Enjoy the long weekend. Happy Easter
Cya
Joe

Just received my latest consignment of goodies from Lee Valley, including a Veritas standard block plane, and a spare blade for my Veritas #5 1/4W bench plane. I got the spare blade so that I could have a blade with a back-bevel for planing wild-grained jarrah. I honed the blade and gave it a 15-degree back-bevel, which, in addition to the 45-degree frog angle of the #5 1/4W, yielded an effective cutting angle of 60 degrees (see the diagram in my post #39). The back-bevel is only about half a millimetre wide, but makes a huge difference to the effectiveness of the plane for planing difficult grain. Whereas, with a 45-degree cutting angle, I was getting severe tear-out when planing wild-grained jarrah, with the 60-degree cutting angle yielded by the back-bevel, tear-out was eliminated.

Incidentally the Veritas standard block plane is a beauty; at 820 grams, it is about twice the weight of the LN low-angle block plane; and it is very comfortable to use. It can easily cut a shaving only 0.02 mm thick.

Rocker

Rocker.

I've been toying with the idea of a back bevel for a while, using a two blade system like you.

My question is, how does the BB blade go in everyday use?

Noting that HNT Gordon blades are set at 60 deg' I've been considering adding a BB to the only blade I have for my 4.5, with the idea of leaving there permanantly (I am aware of how much work it would be to remove it).

I have thought about LN's high angle frog, but it would cost at least $160 and only adds 5 deg' (new blade is about $100).

We add a BB when working difficult grain timber, but isn't that just about all of the more popular Aussie timbers (in one way or another)?

Please consider.

Ben.

Ben,
I don't see any disadvantage in your using a back-bevel to raise your plane's cutting angle to 60 degrees for everyday use, apart from the probability that you would need to sharpen it more often than you would with a lower cutting angle. However, since you are just honing two very narrow bevels, the micro-bevel and the back-bevel, I don't think this is going to entail much work. Although the plane is slightly harder to push with the higher cutting angle, this is scarcely noticeable so long as the blade is really sharp. In fact I am considering leaving the blade with the back bevel in my plane semi-permanently, and just keeping the other blade as a backup.

Rocker

Ben asked

how does the BB blade go in everyday use?

and Rocker answered

don't see any disadvantage in your using a back-bevel to raise your plane's cutting angle to 60 degrees for everyday use, apart from the probability that you would need to sharpen it more often than you would with a lower cutting angle.

Ben, Rocker has essentially given you a correct answer. However, the question you ask is inappropriate.

The purpose of a back bevel is to raise the cutting angle of the plane's blade, here to 60 degrees (but one could just as easily raise it between 50 - 60 degrees). Now this is not to simply provide an improved cut (because it may not do so). The reason why we use a 60 degree cutting angle is so that we reduce the chance of tear-out when cutting difficult grain, as is typical of our Aussie hardwoods (like Jarrah). The higher the cutting angle, the greater the scraping action. Indeed, I would not use a 60 degree blade on softwood (like pine) as the finish is likely to be poorer. Softwoods, and other timbers with nice straight, predictable grain will benefit from a lower cutting angle, which is what the original Stanley planes (with 45 degree cutting angles) were designed for.

The fact that the HNT Gordon planes can get such a good finish on softwoods as well is more a testiment to their good design and, in particular, the plane's very small mouth.

Rocker is correct when he identifies that a higher blade angle will require a greater force to push the plane. This is because, as the cutting angle gets higher, so the plane increasingly begins to resemble a scraper. Keep in mind that you do not use scrapers on softwoods - they will just tear. Hence a high angle blade on pine is generally not a good idea (unless you have a very sharp blade indeed).

At the other end of the spectrum (just to illustrate this process another way), you want to plane end grain with the lowest possible cutting angle (say 20 degrees). Here, the grain is near-vertical.

So it is "horses for courses". There is no such thing as "everyday use" - unless all you plane is Jarrah or similar!!! Stick to a standard 45 degree cutting angle if you plan to work with softwoods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Just received my latest consignment of goodies from Lee Valley, including a Veritas standard block plane, and a spare blade for my Veritas #5 1/4W bench plane.

Oooh, Rocker!!! I'm afraid that this is the first step down the Slippery Slope for you! Oh, yessss!!

I can just see it now. Soon you'll be trading in your electric 'tailed router for a Stanley #71. That digital vernier caliper will make way for the finger test (does it feel about right, more or less, give or take, close enough). The biscuit cutter will be ousted by a Stanley #59 doweling jig. And dovetails, oh YES, they will only be done by hand.

Just think of all the new tools you will soon be buying - tenon saw, dovetail saw ...........

Well done with the black plane and blades.

Best regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I am afraid this is beginning to get a bit off-topic; but I have actually been known to cut dovetails by hand, although I will admit to owning a Leigh jig. Here are some compound-angled ones I did last year

Rocker

Hi Rocker, and thanks for the order!

While I can't claim to have a lot of experience with the wild grained and abrasive woods you have down there, I may be able to contribute a bit on the mechanics side...

Much of what Derek has said above is good information - but I'd clarify/add to it as follows....

What you're after by adding a back-bevel (bevel down plane), or increasing the bevel on a bevel up plane, is a change in the wood chip formation. For a given species of wood, there is a change to type-II chip formation at higher anges (say 55-60 degrees and up) from type-I. It's type-I chips which exhibit tear-out the most...

Some users have reported that using a Low-angle plane with a very narrow mouth opening also reduces tear-out, but this is really a case of the narrow mouth limiting the extent of tear-out, rather than changing the chip type.

Note too that if you use a plane skewed, you essentially reduce the effective blade angle as well...

One of the best ways to sort through a lot of this, is to have a willingness to experiment a bit with which angles work best with your planes, your technique, and the woods you typically use. While there isn't a definitively correct answer - 55 degrees plus for difficult grain is a good starting point!

Cheers -

Rob Lee

My thinking is this, choosing a blade angle is always going to be a compromise.
As the blade can only be set at one angle, the user would be best to set it at the middle of the range of timbers he (she) is most likley to work with. 45 was the angle chosen as the best angle for soft to medium, straight grain timbers, with occasional hard timbers.
If you were to work exclusivly in pine (or softer timbers), you may even benifit from lowering the angle to 35 - 30 (I may be wrong here ).

I rarely use anything softer than Blackwood, and Vic Ash and Tas Myrtle are my 'medium' range, so I'd likley benifit from raising my angle a little.

I have it in mind to start with a 5 deg' BB and see how I go. If all works out well, I may go up again.

What are you thoughts?

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Now this is not to simply provide an improved cut (because it may not do so)
Derek

Derek, I presume that the finish quality (on harder timbers) wouldn't be reduced by increasing the angle (adding BB)?

Ben.

Ben

As I mentioned earlier, and repeated by Rob Lee, finish quality is more a function of the size of the plane's mouth than cutting angle. Basically, the smaller/narrower the mouth, the thinner the shaving permitted. Of course it helps to have a nice, thick blade (at least 1/8" plus solid chipbreaker) to reduce any possible chatter on tough timber. My HNT Gordon smoother (1/4" thick blade) cuts wonderfully, but my home built infill smoother, with a 1/8" LN blade, 1/8" thick chip breaker and 55 degree cutting angle, does an even better job since it has a mouth that is .02" wide. This can leave a glassy surface on Jarrah.

Similarly, I have had the best finish on Pine with a Stanley #65 block plane with Hock blade (set at 20 degrees).

Here's a tip for improved planing performance. One of the new, solid chipbreakers from LN or Hock will produce an even greater upgrade than changing the blade. Combine this with a thicker blade that is sharpened to 8000 grit (waterstone equivalent) and you will have a mean machine. Try Hock of LN ("Stanley Replacement") for blades if you own a Stanley since these are the maximum thickness to fit the mouths without filing them wider. Veritas make very good blades but they will be too thick to fit (sorry Rob).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi again -

Ben has asked me to elaborate on chip types, and as a picture is worth a thousand word - a several thousand word discourse can be found at this link:

http://www.leevalley.com/shopping/In...y=2&page=49520

This is the information from our website, under "Instructions" for the Low Angle Jack plane replacement blade... though the information is applicable for all blades...

For further reading - this topic is covered in Appendix I of "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" - published by Taunton Press (and written by my kids' grandfather ).

Cheers -

Rob Lee

Originally Posted by Rob Lee

a several thousand word discourse can be found at this link:

http://www.leevalley.com/shopping/In...y=2&page=49520

This is the information from our website, under "Instructions" for the Low Angle Jack plane replacement blade... though the information is applicable for all blades...

For further reading - this topic is covered in Appendix I of "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" - published by Taunton Press (and written by my kids' grandfather ).

Cheers -

Rob Lee

Gday all,

Rob, thanks for the link & good to see you popping up on an Aussie BB.

I don't have the Leonard Lee book but it does come highly recommended so more power to your kids' grandfather's arm.

We look forward to you opening an Australian Lee Valley outlet (with prices reflecting those in the Nth American market and the strong $AUD, instead of the inflated prices we seem to pay locally for imported stuff.)

Derek, et al - enjoying the plane blade bevel (or should that be bezel ??) discourse.

Cheers all...........Sean

Thanks again Derek, Rocker and Rob.

After floging the dead horse for a second time, I think I see the big picture (reguarding back bevels and blade angle).

I sometimes need to go over things a few times to get all the angles.

I appreciate your patience, especially Derek, who has probably answered all these questions before, and will more than likely have to do it again some time (thought hopefully not to me).

Rob, Thanks for your additional info and the very helpful link.

Ben. (who is still very impressed that Rob 'gets has hands dirty' and contributes).