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  1. #1
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    Default My kit of Japanese knives ... WIP

    Here's a pic of the kit.

    I started out with a Shun Classic Santoku by way of dipping the toes into the water. Lovely general purpose knife of hard stainless. Sold that when moving on to more specialised knives and crumbs, don't the Japanese like to specialise in knives!

    The journey has been guided via the informed and generous advice of NeilS but what follows is down to me.

    I first got attracted to Japanese knives by the superb Damascus figure; AFAIK it comes from multiple forge-welded laminations of steel types followed by grinding and acid treatment to reveal the 'grain'.

    So from left to right:

    1. SHIMATANI Damascus DEBA knife 180mm/Blue steel, right handed.
    Primary bevel c. 25*, 2ndary v. short bevel about another 5*
    USD 150; from ebay/Metalmaster; no longer appears to be active.
    The lamination is only apparent on the longish primary bevel.

    This is for cutting hard vegies and for filleting fish and cutting through soft bones. The bevel is only on the right side and the back is hollow ground. It's the least used so far as it's way out on left field cp western knives. It has a lot of heft and is a pleasure to wield.

    2. Watanabe Gyuto 180mm at USD 190

    Hammered stainless gunmetal 'sheath'; blue steel core. I use it as a general purpose knife. The edge lasted for over 10 weeks as the only knife in the kit on a recent country stay. The blue steel is prone to corrosion and I've learned to carefully follow Neil's advice to wash it in hot water directly after use, then dry it and wipe on some Camellia Oil.

    This was a special direct from the maker. The closest appears to be

    Japanese chef kitchen knife, cooking knife, sushi knife, custom Japanese knife : watanabeblade.com

    3. Tanaka Nakiri, right handed. 16 layer Damascus VG10 stainless. 17cm. Orig. right side bevel only and had more of a curve seen in plan. I changed both of those in sharpening but will revert to a right bevel only in time.

    The orig. curve allowed it to be used like a French cook's knife so it could be rocked to and fro to chop herbs.

    This is a vegie knife and works wonders on fine slicing of cabbage, ginger, tomato, carrots etc.

    Japanese tools whetstone for sword items - Get great deals on items on eBay Stores!

    4. Tanaka petty knife, right handed, 15.5cm, 16 layer Damascus VG10 stainless, also from 330mate.com.

    In X section this blade is wedge shaped with the smallest of bevels.

    In purpose it approaches a Western paring knife but the blade width is greater. I rounded the heel given the way I peel whole onions.

    The Tanaka knives are very good value given the Damascus figure and the steel quality.
    Last edited by rsser; 4th October 2011 at 03:23 PM. Reason: Additional comment; minor amendments
    Cheers, Ern

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  3. #2
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    Scribbly Gum is offline When the student is ready, the Teacher will appear
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    Default

    I weep when I see lovely kitchen knives.
    I would love to have some good quality knives to use in food prep, but it doesn't matter what we have in the kitchen, they are abused by all and sundry. Examples - thrown together into the cutlery basket of the dishwasher, non stainless -read rust prone- left in the sink unwashed -or washed and left wet overnight. Slicing and dicing on porcelain and glass ..... aarrgghhhhh!
    I have resigned myself to the ubiquitous made in China stainless.
    Woe is me
    SG
    .... some old things are lovely
    Warm still with the life of forgotten men who made them ........................D.H. Lawrence
    https://thevillagewoodworker.blogspot.com/

  4. #3
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    Oh dear, yes.

    'Fraid I got authoritarian about it and said my knives were off limits but I do maintain a set of Western knives for the gals.
    Last edited by rsser; 4th October 2011 at 08:40 AM. Reason: Western added
    Cheers, Ern

  5. #4
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    Default

    Lovely set of knives, Ern. Thanks for sharing.

    That Shimatani Deba is still looking the goods!

    The Metalmaster online store (not eBay) is still operating from here, but no Shimatani only Tanaka in stock at the moment.

    I'm finding that I'm using my Deba more and more. I just love the weight.

    I've also been experimenting with secondary bevels. Undecided if I will go that way, yet.

    Guess I'll have to try and do a show and tell, as well...
    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



  6. #5
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    Thanks for your guidance Neil. Has been invaluable.

    Yes, though the Shimatani Deba has a blue steel core it's stood up v. well. Maybe I've just got into the right habit after use

    Last application was chopping up pumpkin for soup and it was great to use. It's a whopper of a tool

    It came with a tiny 2ndary bevel. Has yet to be resharpened and it will test my freehand skills.

    The Gyuto gets used mainly for cutting meat. It's really good at eg. taking off the connective tissue on porterhouse steak (which IME needs to come off for the meat to expand in cooking and then 'relax' while resting). Also for fine slicing for a stir fry.

    All these knives came with a very keen edge which transformed my thinking about kitchen knives as tools.
    Cheers, Ern

  7. #6
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    Nothing like patterned Japanese steel...I love them. Gotta love steel that comes from the country that made samurai swords!

    Now to convince the spouse that we need new knives...Christmas is coming up after all!

    Thanks for sharing, I just need to wipe the drool off my iPhone!

  8. #7
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    Default

    Thank you for posting pics of your set of knives. I've been reading eagerly about your different acquisitions on the forum and its great to finally see the kit.

    Is a deba something worth investing in? Our knives are double-bevel, but I am curious to try a single bevel knife....

    Also a belated thank you for all the banter around japanese knives on the forum...it was invaluable before we went shopping for our own set earlier this year.

  9. #8
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    Glad to be of some help.

    My Deba, and there are several types, is pretty hefty with a long primary bevel. With a hollow back that makes filleting a fish dead easy for someone who has done little of that. Grab the tail, slide the knife in and let the back follow the spine. The bevel lifts the fillet clear. Apart from that, the heft of the thing and the edge quality make cubing hard vegies easy. At its thickest the spine is 9mm. The nearest equivalent in Western knives that I have would be a 10" French cooks knife.

    For the same reason I preferred the Nakiri with a single bevel (on the right or outside); the back registers in the cabbage, ginger etc and guides a fine even slice.

    Japanese knife types: Japanese Kitchen Knife Types And Styles
    Cheers, Ern

  10. #9
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    Hi Ern,

    Yes, thanks for the photos. Nice set indeed, all slicing and dicing jobs covered. In my book photos of Japanese knives is up there with photos of fine chisels and planes.

    I know that Gyutos are usually double beveled but is this the case with yours and how thick is it across tha back? I am surprised that the Blue steel stood up to 10 weeks of use without a resharpen, that is 'tough' steel (in the metallurgical sense) as well as being hard. A very nice knife.

    But, I agree, one can't go past the Deba in my book for heavy work or fish. Have seen some shows on SBS where a Japanese guy breaks down a large, (tuna) with an array of knives. Like watching a surgeon performing at the pace of a professional woodchop race. Impressive.

    I don't have any Damascus steel Japanese knives but if you keep posting photos like that I may succumb to the urge.

    Cheers
    Pops

  11. #10
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    Default Damascus solution

    Ern

    I invested in one of these delightful knives about three years ago. There was no packaging to speak of with it and I bought it direct from a Hong kong seller. I/We have been very pleased with it, but the rule is, it is never to be left in the sink with other cutlery and plates as that is ask for chunks of flesh to be removed from your hands as they are plunged into the water.

    The knife with it's timber handle is not dishwasher safe.

    I solved Scribbly Gum's issue by making a stand for it as shown below. Just scrap pine stained black and varnished.

    Regards
    Paul
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    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  12. #11
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    Sorry to feed the tool lust out there ;-}

    As for the Damascus steel, I'm not sure there's any functional advantage to it. And one downside was that on the Shun Santoku Classic (VG10) it stained rather from the slurry on the waterstones. It was a bit of an effort polishing it off. Have not found that with the Tanaka Nakiri though.

    As for edge holding, well this is what the Japanese have mastered, by marrying hard steel (63 Rockwell and upwards) in a sheath of soft steel or iron; the lamination(s) mean that just the hard steel edge is exposed. Av. Western knife will be softer, under 60 Rockwell. The marriage addresses the brittleness of hard steel, with the softer steel absorbing the shocks that would normally lead to chipping. This is what I understand anyway; others like Neil are more knowledgeable about this.

    In fact the very tip of the Gyuto, the hard blue steel only, broke off in transport despite the measures I'd taken.

    This Gyuto is 3mm at the thickest part of the spine and tapers down to about 1mm at the tip. And yes, it's double beveled. Ie. is ground on both sides of the blade. And has a small seconary bevel of maybe 2mm width.

    Paul, yep those keen edges are dynamite. My first error after a resharpen was just to drag the thumb across the bevel. Woops! And yes, the handles are of wood usually and the ferrule of buffalo horn on several of mine. Wash dry and oil straight after use is the go esp. with blue steel. The VG10 is a form of hard stainless that survives better but still can't be taken for granted.

    That's a nifty holder.
    Cheers, Ern

  13. #12
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    Feed away....

    My wife and I originally went searching for a knife with damascus steel but in the end decided on three knives with 3-ply laminations with the two outer layers stainless steel ....

    Three knives because we could get three (nakiri, gyuto, petty) instead of just one and stainless because we weren't ready for the care needed with non-stainless knives (though we still have to be careful with the cutting edges which are hard steel - which type of steel I have no idea)

    ...great link, thank you....now to try and convince SWMBO that we require another knife and then perhaps visit watanabe blade whose knives I've been eyeing off for a little while

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsser View Post

    As for edge holding, well this is what the Japanese have mastered, by marrying hard steel (63 Rockwell and upwards) in a sheath of soft steel or iron; the lamination(s) mean that just the hard steel edge is exposed. Av. Western knife will be softer, under 60 Rockwell. The marriage addresses the brittleness of hard steel, with the softer steel absorbing the shocks that would normally lead to chipping. This is what I understand anyway; others like Neil are more knowledgeable about this.
    That's also my understanding, Ern.

    The unique Japanese approach to cutting edge steels arose out of necessity. Unlike the main centres of steel production in the west (England, Germany and Sweden), Japan had little to none of the key ingredients of steel (iron ore and coking coal). With steel being relatively plentiful in the west our knives could be made entirely from steel. Whereas the Japanese had to ration their use of high quality steel to just the cutting edge which they laminated to a lower quality iron. This laminated structure then allowed them to increase the carbon content and thus hardness of the steel (using charcoal) to a much higher level than is possible with the all-steel structure of a western blades. So necessity led to the development of a blade that is superior to western blades in their durability.

    However, because of its hardness the steel requires more effort and attention while sharpening, but once sharp it stays sharp for much longer. And, for the same reason these blades require a little more care in use. The very hard steel in the cutting edge is brittle and doesn't take kindly to impacts. So, a slicing action rather than chopping. Soft chopping boards (endgrain wood is best). Storage away from other hard utensils. And, depending on the steel type, prompt washing and drying after use.

    There are some other factors in the hand forging process derived from Samurai sword making that adds to the durability and fineness of the cutting edge in Japanese knives. But that is more esoteric topic that is beyond us here, other than to say there is metallurgic evidence for why these knives perform better in the way they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by rsser View Post

    As for the Damascus steel, I'm not sure there's any functional advantage to it. And one downside was that on the Shun Santoku Classic (VG10) it stained rather from the slurry on the waterstones. It was a bit of an effort polishing it off. Have not found that with the Tanaka Nakiri though.
    Agreed. There is no functional benefit from Damascus cladding. There may have been some advantage to the extra lamination layers in Samurai swords (Improved shock absorption) but not in kitchen sized knives or the way they should be used. Damascus cladding adds to the cost of a knife without adding any functional benefits.

    Pops, if you like the look of the Damascus enough to pay the extra then that's a valid aesthetic decision. We all like to have and use things that give us visual pleasure.

    But, like Ern, I have one Damascus clad knife that corrodes (instantly) along the lamination lines. Rather than adding to its aesthetic appeal this detracts from both the visual and functional use of that knife. I'm prepared to put the extra effort into keeping the corrosion prone edges on my knives in good condition. The trade-off being the pleasure of using a very sharp knife, but I'm not prepared to spend the same time in maintaining the cladding on a knife.

    Like Desert Oak, I tend to get SS cladding on my knives unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise.

    On the different types of non-SS cutting edge steels used in making Japanese knives, this page has a simple description of each type of 'Hagane'. I prefer the Blue (Aogami) steels for my general use slicing knives. The White (Shirogami) steel is good for the lower temper needed on a heavy duty knife like a Deba.

    But it's SS cutting edges (VG-10, etc.) on all of the knives that get given to
    family and friends, well at least until they are ready to graduate to some serious steel. And when they do it gets really expensive for me...



    Stay sharp and stay safe!

    Neil



  15. #14
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    Interesting, I have a friend that is a chef. He doesn't like Japanese steel. He finds that they dull too fast in his busy kitchen. Not sure what he is using now, but he did say that in the domestic situation that they would be perfect.

  16. #15
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    Yeah. But it depends on how they're used. They're like thoroughbred horses ... you don't use them to pull a plough.

    As Neil said, an endgrain chopping block is desirable. I got one out of bamboo from Ebay but think it's too hard.

    You also shouldn't use them to wipe the results off a board into the pan. That's enough to b*gger an edge.

    Lastly, they're more specialised in general than western knives. I would ask your friend what he's used on what.

    All that aside, there are many Japanese cooks using Japanese knives to good effect who would laugh at the standard cutting qualities of western knives.
    Cheers, Ern

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