Thread: Knife set

Originally Posted by Mutawintji

I have a Mundial set myself, but have abandoned it as too hard too keep sharp. A lot of people find this I think.

We had a Mundial set and the smaller knives were ok to sharpen but the chefs knife was definitely a problem with a steel. I suspect more frequent use of the water stone wouldhave yielded a better result.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Mutawintji

In general, and this is a personal opinion, softer blades stay sharp longer than hard blades.

Can that be ?

Not in theory or in my experience

But, your experience may be different Greg.

The Theory: the harder the material the more resistant it is to abrasion.

in Practice: harder steels take more effort to sharpen, but once sharp stay sharper for longer, however, the harder the steel the more brittle it is; so they have to be used with care.

I tend to have sharpening sessions when I get all of my waterstones and knives out and sharpen them all at the same time. They all end up with the same level of sharpness (very sharp). The softer HRC -60 steels quickly loose their edge, the low 60s last a lot longer, and the 63-65s go on and on, provided that I avoid letting their brittle hard edges hit anything hard.

Originally Posted by NeilS

Not in theory or in my experience

But, your experience may be different Greg.

The Theory: the harder the material the more resistant it is to abrasion.

in Practice: harder steels take more effort to sharpen, but once sharp stay sharper for longer, however, the harder the steel the more brittle it is; so they have to be used with care.

I tend to have sharpening sessions when I get all of my waterstones and knives out and sharpen them all at the same time. They all end up with the same level of sharpness (very sharp). The softer HRC -60 steels quickly loose their edge, the low 60s last a lot longer, and the 63-65s go on and on, provided that I avoid letting their brittle hard edges hit anything hard.

Yes ... I get mine very sharp too. So, if you are right then my Chef's Knife must have a softer lamination on the outer sides of the blade. It is definitely softer and easier to sharpen than the Mundials.

My sharpening is as follows:

I sharpen at 22.5 degrees. I can do this by hand after so many years. But to get the angle you just fold a square piece of paper into a triangle which gives 45degs and then fold it again which gives the 22.5.

Then I 'rough-stone' (just a normal stone ... probably about 200 grit ?) till I can feel the 'jagged' edge all along the blade .... this tells me I have a 'new' edge at the right angle. Now I proceed much more gently with the same stone ... and swap sides much more regular .. after about 3 minutes I can now shave hairs off my arm or leg .. no problem.

At this point I replace the stone with a diamond stone .. small .. 60mm long .. And now I just idly hone it while talking or watching TV for about 20mins .. at the same 22.5 angle .. this brings it to razor-sharp ... and the longer I hone the sharper it continues to get. But too sharp will not last as long in the kitchen

For the German knife this works perfect. For the Mundials ... not so good.


I also have a very large chef's knife (which has proved impractical and unusable because of its length and rocker) and the Blade is 'Green River Steel' ?? ... This knife will take an edge even quicker than the German Chef's knife. It also can easily be honed to razor-sharp.

In my opinion, and I may be using the wrong term ..

The green river is the 'softest' blade

The german is the next 'softest' blade

The mundials are the 'hardest blades'

The green River holds its edge the longest ?? Does this make sense ??

Greg

Interesting. What I know about knife sharpening could be engraved on a pin head in 10pt font. However, I'm now breaking away from using a steel and going to a 1000 and 6000 pair of Lobster Waterstones. Thanks to Ern, I have also started reading the recently acquired book from Leonard Lee (how to sharpen virtually any tool - shed or kitchen).

He advocates angles as low as 5* each side (so included angle of 10*) for cutting soft things and "nearly 20* (included angle about 35*)" for heavy duty chopping, such as Ern trying to remove his finger the other day. Greg, using this benchmark, maybe your angle is too blunt (although I would have thought it would last longer, being a much more robust edge).

First attempt on the 23cm Chef's Wusthof with the stones (and 5*) wasn't too great, but I doubt that I got to the edge as there was prolly still more bevel to remove from what was likely to have always been a 15-20* each side bevel using the steel. A few days later I had another go, spending longer on the 1000 to remove steel to go to 5*, and this was an improvement, and a better edge than using the steel.

Now that I have the knife from Paul (similar size to the Wusthof) I'll probably keep it at 5-8* and go 10-15* on the Wusthof for heavyier work (double that to get the inc.angle). I'll also have a think about what sort of jig I can make to assist this. I can keep a reasonably consistent hand held angle, but it only takes a stroke or two out of whack on the 1000 to bugger the edge.

Others will know better, but I'm not so sure that Mundials, Wusthofs and other Western knives are laminated steel. More a Japanese speciality.

In terms of getting a consistent angle at major grinds I find a honing guide useful:

Honing Guide for Knives - Lee Valley Tools

This isn't entirely painting by numbers as you still need to maintain the curve of an edge and the clamp arms don't flex to the same degree so it's easy to get asymmetric bevels.

Hmmmmm ... the reason I sharpen at 22.5 is when I first started out sharpening ... which came about thru cooking ... I went to the butcher shop and asked the butcher how to sharpen knives.

He showed me the 22.5 degs.. and from memory he said that sharper is obtainable but not practical for general purpose. This could be wrong, I have never checked. As well he showed me boning knives, etc that were extremely soft .... you could sharpen them to a fine edge with just a few strokes ?? And these were used on the kill-floor of slaughter yards. This left me with the impression that hard steel is not necessarily the best for everyday practical purposes.

Because a soft knife is easy to steel and sharpen it is preferable to a hard knife when you are using it as a tool of employ. This could be wrong too. But that was the general tone of what he told me.

I found that with the Mundials ... the ration of sharpen: use was way too high. I was forever sharpening them and they took a long time to sharpen.

I also 'steel' between sharpenings and at the start of every 'use'. my understanding of 'steeling' is simple alignment of electron-magnetic-moment giving a more rigid molecular bond. If this is true then you would need to 'steel' quite often and regular to maintain the alignment. And it appears that butchers/meat workers do this very regularly which supports my theory.

My steel is 'smooth'.

I don't have any scientific evidence at all. Just my observations.

cool bananas ... greg

Western boning knives can be rigid or flexible BTW.

Re Mundials, with my two kits I can't say I've seen that much diff. from other Western knives but my understanding is that hardening and tempering can vary somewhat by batch.

The larger Mundials (8" & 6" chef French cooks' knives) are fairly thick right down to the bevel cp the equiv. Gyotoh so obviously a good deal more steel has to come off when doing a major grind.

Just to repeat the important warning: steels are not for hard-steel JP knives.

Originally Posted by rsser

In terms of getting a consistent angle at major grinds I find a honing guide useful:

Honing Guide for Knives - Lee Valley Tools

This isn't entirely painting by numbers as you still need to maintain the curve of an edge and the clamp arms don't flex to the same degree so it's easy to get asymmetric bevels.

Thanks Ern, I may add that to the LV list (another order soonish). However, it doesn't have much of a grab on the knife, although it's only a guide of course. It just looks like it could skit over if I look crossly at it. I'm thinking of something timber with REMs to grab the blade yadda.

No it doesn't have a strong grip on the knife. It can be improved by gluing some W&D on the clamp faces - have done this with a Lanksy all-in-one kit.

A strong grip is not really needed though; the forces are through one hand on the knife handle and two fingers on the blade. With a good stone that you've built up a bit of slurry on, as always the abrasive should be doing the working. Too much force on my Watanabe Gyoto will on a #1000 stone chip out the edge up towards the tip.

Originally Posted by rsser

No it doesn't have a strong grip on the knife. It can be improved by gluing some W&D on the clamp faces - have done this with a Lanksy all-in-one kit.

A strong grip is not really needed though; the forces are through one hand on the knife handle and two fingers on the blade.

Yes, understood. I'm really talking about the wobbles.

OK.
Haven't found that a problem.
You need a bit of rocking longitudinally anyway to preserve the arc of the edge to the extent the knife has one.

My problem with those 'aids' to the correct angle is that as you become proficient, more experienced, the more those things start to get in your way.

They are very good to start with as a learning aid. Once you know the angle, its like riding a bike, you can do it in the dark .... but training wheels are a good way to learn. Also you don't need to buy one, just cut a wedge at the desired angle and tape it back to the handle if you need.

I don't know the science behind blade sharpening but have always been interested in it in various cultures.

This guy, whose shop is not far from the Clockmaker, and whom I have photographed and filmed many times over the years, can sharpen his knife without even looking. Starting about 04:00 am every morn he butchers 3-4 whole pigs every single day ..... with just a single knife ... no other tool.

He rarely sharpens it on the stone, only once every few weeks. He uses an upside-down stainless dish as his steel which he 'glues' to the bench with the first few cuts of pork fat. Under his forearm, and to the left, just visible is his 'cutting board'. It is the skin off the first pig for that day.

From questioning him I have found that there are various 'imitation' knives of this style, but the good 'steel' ones, like the one in this photo is worth about 1000 baht ... $30-$40. This is a HUGE amount of money for a knife in Thailand

This is amazing to watch. Here is a 1.25 sec shoot (12 photos) in which he sharpens his knife. He does not even look at the dish.

Can you imagine trying to convince him he needs and angle-aid ... haaa


NB: The big lump of pig fat and the upside down dish ... just to his right on the bench.







A 1.25 sec shoot in which he averages 13 strokes ..... He is talking to me while he does this and hardly paying attention at all to the sharpening. Tho neither of us speak each others language.





Rarely, he will grind his only knife back on this stone .....





The wooden block his stone is on is Tamarind trunk and is self disinfecting. They are used all over Thailand, and I have bought many back home and customs never gives me any grief over them. They are a very beautiful, heavy, dense, wood.

cool bananas ... Greg

Originally Posted by Mutawintji

He showed me the 22.5 degs.. and from memory he said that sharper is obtainable but not practical for general purpose. This could be wrong, I have never checked.

Greg

I think your man has made a very important point. For example how long does a razor blade hold it's edge? Bear in mind it only has to cut lubricated hair. I think this applies to all cutting tools including chisels and plane blades.

There is a practical limit to how low the bevel goes. Yes it can be incredibly sharp will have no longevity. Somewhere there is a balance between sharpness (angle) and durability and this will depend on the purpose for which you are using the knife and the type of steel from which it is made.

Incidentally, the seller of Brett's knife contacted me again after I had received the last knife just to remind me that the Gyuto should only be used on soft foods. In other words use it to contact bone or frozen foods and you'll be sorry. It will chip.

Brett's knife is V2 steel (blue steel family) HRC 63-64

Regards
Paul

I've used my Gyutoh for cooking 2-3 times a week and slicing solid bread each morning - and it's lasted 3 months before needing a return to the stones.

Couldn't tell you what the included bevel angle is. After a sharpen it goes through capsicum (and skin ) like it wasn't there.