Thread: Pull Saws - Genetic differences

Originally Posted by Sheets

If you attempt to force the saw, you are applying stress to parts and in directions for which it is not optimized. Always pull parallel to the axis of the blade and never "push" down. The return stroke is an exact opposite of the pull (don't press the teeth this way either).

Spot on. Years ago I read a quote from a Japanese craftsman explaining the difference between Eastern and Western saws. He said its like a blade of grass… try pushing it through your fingers, you cant, it will buckle, now pull the blade of grass back through your fingers, it goes into tension and slides back with ease. How true.

[QUOTE=Clinton1;1152739]Ok,
Everybody hello

I am a Japanese old man.
I can understand only some English.

I have learned woodwork approximately ten years ago.
I studied the saw from Japanese old times then.

It was for the woodcutters who cut down the big tree which stood, and the old thing was called (gandou).
The form resembles a Western saw, and the difference goes down, and cut it.
Strengthen iron by hand (I bake it in a high temperature and beat with a mallet and it is greatly thin and swats it and stretches it out).
The form draws a part in hemicycle and I change it in a right angle on a straight line and get a handle.
I work to distribute it to the part of the straight line having a big tooth in turn, and to turn it.
I avoid friction as if this operation being said to be (asari), and a part equal to the wood being cut, and not touching the already sharp part.

It went down beside the emulation of the big tooth and a small tooth, but a saw was made afterwards to process the wood which I cut down.

If this which was able to play the carpenter saw is only for emulation, there is wide both pulls combined use saw which I pull it, and did it back to back if exclusive use.

These are made by hand, and most were used, but already have not almost stayed because exclusive machine production saws increased.

It is plane, and the machine production saw processes slightly soft steel prepared to a purpose with a flat machine (ten parrying machine), and I polish the point of a sword, and be set and I do not compromise and bake only the point of a sword specially, and enter and process it and produce exchange teeth.

It is hard to glide parallel to the straight line of the tooth, and the bearer has it and makes it.
The fixation of the spare blade has three kinds of attachment means,

I screw it from a durability subordinate.

I stop it with a screw from the lateral direction of the handle.

I do key nail type processing at the root of the spare blade, and there is a thing to fix strongly by having a key, and being light, and hitting the back of the spare blade.
(the Z so type that it is easy to treat this most, and is used a lot in Japan)

That the wood has a firm layer and a soft layer and cuts it parallel to a soft layer; of the tooth when is big, and use the emulation that is hard to be sharp, can cut it by light power.
When I cut it, a tooth is small and uses the wide pull that I am easy to cut for the direction where a right angle and grain of wood got into in grain of wood.

There is the ramming saw which I control it, and put a rail (trunk) in a back that there is the thing that the thickness of the saw is very light (0.2mm) and does not turn in wood and uses it though I process it into precision dimensions.
(corner laying upons of the frame)

A common carpenter (business) uses the handmade unit for the woodwork person to make an artistic work using the unit of the spare blade. (very expensive)
ttp://homepage2.nifty.com/s-kawai/kaebanoko_hanbai.html

Then good-bye.

Welcome Kikoriko

I'm sure we will all value your contribution

Arigato (thank you)

Welcome Kikoriko

Thank you for sharing your knowledge of Japanese saws with us.

I have this old Japanese saw. Is it like the one you describe?

Clinton, if you are still out there.
I work with japanese nokogiri saws and have broken a few myself. They used to say in Japan that the better saws break the easiest. The handmade saws usually have a thinner body and this is one reason.

I would always encourage serious users of japanese saws to buy handmade saws for their finer work while having a couple of machine made saws for coarse work at hand. There is no greater pleasure than using a fine handmade nokogiri that is tuned up, you can almost cut with your eyes closed. Also a greater investment focuses your attention to the care of your tools.

For your problem at hand (a couple of years ago now), you might find that a blade with a slightly wider set kerf would help ease the relief on your return stroke to prevent binding, and a longer handle might help too. The blades I have broken have been on the return stroke near the saw end, my problem was lack of focus and trying to saw too fast. I was taking too long of a stroke which brings then end of the blade closer to exiting the wood. A longer handle might help with this problem. Good luck, Alx

Just a quick note about handmade saws: the better ones tend to have the maker's name scratched in near the handle, rather than stamped in. You can easily tell the difference. There are some more sturdy handmade saws out there, but they tend to cost a lot more (though I find they're among the best I have).

Just a tip when hunting them down... though Alx probably knows this already.

Originally Posted by yojimbo

Just a quick note about handmade saws: the better ones tend to have the maker's name scratched in near the handle, rather than stamped in. You can easily tell the difference. There are some more sturdy handmade saws out there, but they tend to cost a lot more (though I find they're among the best I have).

Just a tip when hunting them down... though Alx probably knows this already.

I find another way to recognize handmade saws is by the marks left by the sen. The scratches made by the sen on handmade saws are rougher and not completely straight while the machine made scratches are fine and straight.

Regards,
Gadge

Yep.

Though I've seen a few that have barely any marks at all.

Originally Posted by yojimbo

Just a quick note about handmade saws: the better ones tend to have the maker's name scratched in near the handle, rather than stamped in. You can easily tell the difference. There are some more sturdy handmade saws out there, but they tend to cost a lot more (though I find they're among the best I have).

Just a tip when hunting them down... though Alx probably knows this already.

Originally Posted by Gadge

I find another way to recognize handmade saws is by the marks left by the sen. The scratches made by the sen on handmade saws are rougher and not completely straight while the machine made scratches are fine and straight.

Regards,
Gadge

How about "No" and "No"?

Do not ever rely on a generalization of any kind when it comes to Japanese saws, or tools/blades in general. Please.

Because if you insist on doing so, I can usually give hard evidence to make you wrong.

(Has pics in his camera of a saw with a stamped mark and very straight 'scratches'. A junker for sure, if you happened to also overlook the hand welded tang and tension hammer marks left on it...)

It's unfortunate that there are no hard and fast 'rules' for being able to pick out a good saw from a bad, but often if you can pick it up and look at it, you can see rather quickly whether it's up to snuff or not. It's also unfortunate that few folks reading this will have the luxury of doing that...

Sorry.

Stu.

Point well made, Stu. And point well taken!

My first thought was the saw was to small for the job at hand , thus one tends to push the saw more than it can handle ,rather one should grab the next size up or maybe 2 sizes up.

I feel that one can never be to big for a little saw. That would be like saying One can not hold an egg or tomatoe because they are way too strong and their hands just squeeze them till they squish .

A small saw can do big work but don' t expect to get done in a timely manner . On other forums there have been many a discussion about saw size for the job at hand , but one thing I have noticed is that the most popular saw here in the USA is a 240 mm way to small for most work unless it is finish work. 300 mm and up for framing, the problem is that no one imports larger than 300 mm on a regular basis. Thus we all start to believe that our saws are doing less than they should and we push them more than they can handle.

And If I was to make a generalization about Japanese saws it would be that most westerners have a time frame in mind of how fast work should get done and pick up a saw that is 1 size to small for the job at hand.

One time I had to shave less than 1 mm slice off a 4 x 6 beam in a notch I had cut wrong , I used my
170 mm Mitsukawa Saiku-nokogiri ( This saw is thinner than a tissue) the notch was bigger than the whole saw body. it took quite some time to do by any ones standards. But I new this was faster than any other method so I had the mindset to relax and not damage the saw or the sliver of wood coming off as it is what keeps the blade in line to cut straight.



"If you or your saw don't feel happy with how things are going , go bigger."

That reminds me why is it that with most things here I this country bigger is better until the japanese style saw comes along and then every one is going patite.

Hope this helps

Gregoré

Gregore, Hida in Berkeley used to carry 400 mm saws, Mitsukawa; but I think they were sold recently and their catalog says they don't any more. Maybe if you asked. Also, Japan WW has a 500 mm timber saw, not great for framing. And then there's always ebay, where I've bought a couple of very large saws which perform quite nicely. That Mitsukawa I got from Hida is a real champ.

As to sawing <1mm width, why didn't you plane it?

Pam

When I was last in there in August they did not have any. Not that I needed one even if they did. As for why I did not plane it ,it was red wood end grain and it was a hair thicker than 1 mm if you include the saw kerf. So it was just faster than planning. It may have been a wash either way if I had bigger rabbit kanna but they were about half the width of the part that needed removing. It all looked good in the end.


Maybe the problem is that westerners when they first see Japanese saws tend to buy just 1 or 2 sizes and ask them to do every thing , which means they probably end up with a 240 and a 210 ryoba , when what they really need is 4 saws. They need to add a 270 and a 300 , now sure one could say that a 320 or 330 would be handy and also a 180 but I think by adding the 2 extra bigger saws first time users of Japanese style saws would usually pick the bigger saw for the job at hand and learn good habits straight away. It is human nature to use what tool we have on hand to do the job so I think that stores should encourage first time users to either buy 4 Saws ( highly unlikely) or a 270 . Then they will not have to worry so much about bending or breaking ,but instead they will have to learn control, as the 270 will be too big for some of the jobs. And it seems that some begginers have a problem starting the bigger saws especially on small stuff.

And that is a whole other story.

Well, you know, Mark Grable says to learn how to saw use one much, much bigger than the job would call for.