Thread: Pull Saws - Genetic differences

Ok... still time poor... did a 14 hour day today.

Des, Its the push stroke that causes the problems every time.
Timber is 90 x 45 mm.

Cutting position is 'whatever'. The workbench is in construction, and the pine is for a clapm rack,,, so I'll cut it on the dining room table or kitchen bench or over the trestles or semi formed top of the bench. I'm working around, and not 'perfectly set up'.

I've used western saws pretty extensively, in all sorts of situations... on workbenches, over sawhorses, on the site on farm building projects. I sharpen them myself, and can cut a good line with a blunt saw when its quicker to get the job done and finish up than to take time off to sharpen a saw.
Been using handtools from a pretty young age, and was taught by an old builder that did a lot of the old houses (from sawmill negotiation on cutting out logs to finished house) - one of my Grandfathers.

I know that its the tradesman, not the tool... and I use the saw like a builders tool not something fancy that needs 'slow and steady precision and babying'.

I'm holding off getting decent builders size Japanese tools, as I think I'll monster them, and that would be a shame... but I want them due to the way they cut.

With a western saw, if a tooth catches for whatever reason, the blade can accomodate a lot of drama before it bends/buckles so much you need to take out the tension, straighten and retension.
And that the issue... you can repair the saw, but its a bit hard to repair a broken Japanese pullsaw blade when it cracks the metal.

Hi Clinton.

If it's only on the return push stroke that the saws are snapping, and you can cut straight lines with Western saws, then I'd say there's probably nothing wrong with your cutting technique. There's no difference in the actual cutting principle between Western push and Japanese pull saws. In both cases, the arm has to form a straight line with the line of the saw blade; the obvious difference is push instead of pull.

The photo below is from the textbook we received at the college where I studied in Japan. The fellow sawing is the college's senior master carpenter with 50+ years experience. He certainly doesn't baby his tools, saws included. He uses considerable force, but it's all on the pull (cutting) stroke. After the cut stroke, he eases the saw back to the start position, then pulls it through strongly again. As you could imagine, a very fluid motion with considerable force, but very little effort.

Also, as you can see in the photo, the work piece is fully supported throughout the cut - in this case with his body (foot), so there's no risk that the timber will move and bind on the saw.

Among other things, the text talks about positioning the head and ensuring the blade doesn't twist, but it also mentions that the push stroke should be light, and power should go into the pull stroke, and that the cut should be continued throughout at a uniform angle. This is where I think your problem is - too much energy on the return push stroke, and possibly the timber moving slightly on the push stroke causing the saw blade to twist and snap. Both are easily fixed.

Hope this helps a bit.

Regards
Des

Originally Posted by Clinton1

As for your "tooth differences for soft and hard wood" - would you do me a favour and share the knowledge, please?

Hi Clinton

here is what was in the latest Furniture and cabinetmaking

Must admit that I can't remember ever seeing a Japanese saw seller indicating that a particular saw is for hardwood.

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Originally Posted by NeilS

Must admit that I can't remember ever seeing a Japanese saw seller indicating that a particular saw is for hardwood.

Originally Posted by NeilS

.....

I've seen the odd one on US japan tool sites. Here it is.



Guyokucho 10"hardwood saw.

Gyokucho 10" Hardwood Saw <!05> - The Japan Woodworker Catalog

Originally Posted by tea lady

[LEFT]I've seen the odd one on US japan tool sites. Here it is.

Gyokucho 10" Hardwood Saw <!05> - The Japan Woodworker Catalog

OK, thanks for that TL.


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Originally Posted by NeilS

OK, thanks for that TL.

Originally Posted by NeilS

.....

Maybe a bow saw would work for you Clinton. You could make it to fit you then. And put the blade in any way you want. (Will they work as pull saws? )

:dunce: How bazaar. The next thread I look at you are replying that you are making a bow saw. :spooky:

Yep, spooky!

Bow saws work 'either way', pull or push. You can put the blade in either way.
I've made a few... the trouble is getting the right blade, or filing one to your liking. I'm over filing a blade... so I'll look for bandsaw blades in the toooth pattern I like.

With B&stard Aussie hard timber, I find a crosscut blade works best as a allrounder... both for clean rip lines as well as for cross cuts. More so if the timber is really dry.

Some salvage doors are coming up nice, lots of 1/4 cut old growth oregon... thats my bow and frame saw.

I've been playing with the cutting action of the J saws... absorbing the replies in this thread. My drama is that I push (old habits), and ripping hard is inaccurate for me. I'll work it out. It will be combination of adjusting muscle memory to the J saw, and adjusting my body position.

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Bow saws... the trouble is getting the right blade... so I'll look for bandsaw blades in the toooth pattern I like.

Bandsaw blades work quite well on bow saws. Real cheap if you use broken blades and still reasonably cheap to buy new lengths. Some of the tooth profiles that I use on my bandsaw are a bit too aggressive (for me) to push/pull by hand, so have to use a less aggressive profile. Have mainly used on log work, but can't see why it wouldn't work with on fine work with a fine TPI blade. Bi-metal blades can be resharpened and the profiles adjusted.

.....

Clint

" Cutting position is 'whatever'. The workbench is in construction, and the pine is for a clapm rack,,, so I'll cut it on the dining room table or kitchen bench or over the trestles or semi formed top of the bench. I'm working around, and not 'perfectly set up " .

It sounds to me like it is likely the wood is moving as you make the return stroke and the saw is binding in the kerf.

I suggest you start by clamping the wood to a bench or some other firm support and do a series of test cuts to see if that improves things. if it does you need to make sure you have the wood clamped or held firmly whilst cutting. If not, then it is most likely that you are not making the return stroke in a straight line, and you will need to work on that

If I am cross cutting say a 90 X 45 length of Pine, I usually lay it on the bench or saw horse at the front edge, and start the cut at the top front corner and let the cut go down and across and then slowly roll the wood away from me whilst cutting, if you make the first cut square the saw will then follow the kerf around the wood as you roll it. The key is to cut so as to pull the wood down onto the bench, then light but firm pressure will hold it in position. When you cut through the last face take light cuts so the saw does not drop onto the bench top, and you should finish with a nice square cut, and both pieces sitting on the bench top.
Hold the saw handle firmly but don't lock your wrist and fist, let the saw do the work.

Grab a 2.4 m length & crosscut it into 6mm slices and that should get you into the swing of things.

Regards

Originally Posted by tea lady

:spooky:

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Yep, spooky!...

Wot?

Originally Posted by Spooky

Wot?

So what do you reckon about Japanese saws?