how can one recognise a jo-shiko kanna unless you actually use it?

**soatoz** · 2nd March 2007, 03:12 PM

I just had a chat with my friend over email and I thought this conversation might be interesting, so I'll post it here.

====

A question for you - how can one recognise a jo-shiko kanna unless you actually use it.

Yeah, good question isn't it.

I understand that the mouth is likely to be very fine and the blade with cap iron set very close to the edge of the blade.

I also realise that the dai bottom may be very slightly scraped off so that contact is limited to 3 points but what else?

Yes, but these are what the users do by themselves AFTER the purchase.

NONE of these are done at the time of purchase, if it's a new one.

And if it's an old one it would even be much much worse. Usually the block has to be changed to a new one, chipbreaker to be adjusted, and of course the blade needs a MAJOR maintenance. Sometimes the back cavity is almost gone! Then you'd have to have it sent to the pro to have the hollow made again. We can never do it by ourselves. The hollow is very
delicate. If you over grind, you'd poke a hole in the steel, and can't use grinders in the first place because the heat will over temper the steel making is brittle and useless.

The mouth isn't even opened enough for the blade to come out and the user have to open it himself. Beginners without much knowledge of Japanese tools crack the dai pounding the blade so hard, wondering why it won't come out...

This is why I like to sell my planes fully adjusted. A beginner user can see at least once how an adjusted plane performs, and if he is keen, he should wonder why after he had adjusted and sharpened, the performance went down, and start learning.

Whereas if it was unadjusted, beginners might think that Japanese tools aren't that great. I would really want to avoid that situation, but I guess it would be inevitable in the near future. I am getting way too busy getting so many contacts and stuff, I won't be able to adjust all the tools I sell. But for now that's what I'm doing, and without any extra charge.

Anyway, if you are wondering how you can tell "when it's being sold", you'd have to look for something else right?

I suppose I would have great difficulty in distinguishing between a chu-shiko and a jo-shiko.

Actually, it is distinguished by the user! Not by the maker. More expensive ones are intended to be used as jo-shiko, but you can still use them as ara-shiko or chu-shiko too.

So,,, see it's like this. A common person would consider a Honda S2000 (do you know?) a luxury car. But for a millionare it is just a daily car used for shopping or something, when they own lots of Ferraris and Lambourghinis,,,
Do you know what I mean? Some people use very expensive planes for Chu-shiko, even for Aara-shiko, something which many people would consider a great Jo-shiko.

Basically, the difference between Chu-shiko and Jo-shiko is defined by the adjustment done by the user. The width of the mouth opened, and the depth of the shave on the sole (ju~st a little deeper for Chu-shiko.)
Also if it's an Aara-shiko, the blade would be sharpened slightly rounded to the sideway, so that the whole width of the blade won't bite on the surface, because if it does it would be too heavy to pull.

But there is one thing you can check "as a guidance." If the mouth is opened wide showing large amount of bevel of the blade (it's called Normal mouth = Futsuu-guchi) then it is "usually" intended to be Aara-shiko
or Chu-shiko. If the mouth is "Tsutsumi-guchi"=Coverd mouth, which conceals the bevel as much as possible is intended to be Jo-shiko. But sometimes the quality of the blade is too good to be used for Aara or Chu-shiko, then the user make a new dai for it with Tsutsumi-guchi style and use it for Jo-shiko.

Also, for chu-shiko and especially for ara-shiko, it is better to have an alloy steel for the blade, because the endurance matters. And unless you are using it on very hard timbre (then you don't need a jo-shiko. you would sand after chu-shiko) pure carbon steel blade is better because the edge would be sharper than alloy steels. So, the most expensive planes (over $1000) are almost always pure carbon steel (WS#1, Swedish steel, and Tama-hagane) and not an alloy. There are only few exeptions (various Blue super steel, Tougou steel. these are my favorite!!!)

**willie** · 2nd March 2007, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by soatoz

So, the most expensive planes (over $1000) are almost always pure carbon steel (WS#1, Swedish steel, and Tama-hagane) and not an alloy. There are only few exeptions (various Blue super steel, Tougou steel. these are my favorite!!!)

Wow. Great post but you're really pushing the bounds of my comprehension. I'm going to have to go back to previous posts and re-learn some of my Japanese terms. Maybe we could get a "sticky" going at the start of the forum with a glossary of Japanese terms. I for one, would find this helpful.

Now, to the quote. When you say "pure carbon steel" is the blade still laminated with an iron behind the steel? If so, are high quality Japanese blades always laminated or are there some exceptions?

**Skew ChiDAMN!!** · 3rd March 2007, 01:13 AM

Yeah, a dictionary of japanese tool part names would be handy.

I reckon I've got most of it, but are the Chu-shiko, Aara-shiko and Jo-shiko the western equivalents to our jack-plane, finishing plane, etc...?

**Schtoo** · 3rd March 2007, 03:16 AM

Yep Skew, different grades of plane.

Ara is coarse, Chu is middle, Jo is fine. Or something like that. I find the Japanese writing easier to work out, if that was here I could have told you without having to hunt down some text to see for myself.

BTW, since I use hardwood almost exclusively, I don't use Japanese planes very often. Lotsa effort spent for not too much reward.

(And yes, I can make them sing pretty well. Enough to make eyes pop at least...

)

**Skew ChiDAMN!!** · 3rd March 2007, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Schtoo

Yep Skew, different grades of plane.

Ara is coarse, Chu is middle, Jo is fine. Or something like that. I find the Japanese writing easier to work out, if that was here I could have told you without having to hunt down some text to see for myself.

Thanks, Schtoo.

BTW, since I use hardwood almost exclusively, I don't use Japanese planes very often. Lotsa effort spent for not too much reward.

That sounds an apt description for my western plane abilities... "Lotsa effort spent for not too much reward." Yup. Sums it up pretty damned well.

For some reason I've always managed better with spokeshaves and draw-knives and I've converted to japanese saws (although I'm not too happy with their "throwaway" nature) for my accurate cuts... so I can't help but wonder if I should venture into "pull" planes as well.

(And yes, I can make them sing pretty well. Enough to make eyes pop at least...

)

Sing? I've no idea whether I can make a plane sing or not... the shrieks of agony from the timber drown everything else out.

**underused** · 3rd March 2007, 11:50 AM

I go through phases using Japanese planes. I like the basic nature of them, I like the thick blades

, but in my opinion they just arent as versatile as western modern planes (LV,LN).
I can take a LV bevel up jack, and do almost anythnig with it. Everything is easily ajusted in seconds.
Having said that, if you have a well set up japanese plane, they do "sing" and leave an excellent finish.

**Schtoo** · 3rd March 2007, 07:34 PM

I agree with Underused.

Case in point, I bought a plane to Groggy's bbq, I hope you saw it. That night, I gave it a sharpen with a #3,000 stone, and a little tuning up. Then planed a 2x4.

Left a finish like glass that an iron plane would really struggle to match, let alone better.

They really do shine on softwoods, but typically have some trouble with hardwood. Not always, but that's what I find myself.

(And I was staying out of here.

)

**soatoz** · 5th March 2007, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by willie

Now, to the quote. When you say "pure carbon steel" is the blade still laminated with an iron behind the steel? If so, are high quality Japanese blades always laminated or are there some exceptions?

Sorry, I had forgotten to reply to this question.
Yes they are laminated. All Japanese plane blades are laminated, I think without any exeptions. There are HSS chisels that are all steel constructed, but there are no such plane blades.

I'm getting ready with the sticky, so please refer to the corresponding section on pure carbon steel.

**Schtoo** · 6th March 2007, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by soatoz

Yes they are laminated. All Japanese plane blades are laminated, I think without any exeptions. There are HSS chisels that are all steel constructed, but there are no such plane blades.

Cough...

Some (cheap!) are solid...

uncough...

**soatoz** · 6th March 2007, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Schtoo

Cough...

Some (cheap!) are solid...

uncough...

Hi Schtoo

Yeah, you're right, I've forgotten about those... Thanks for the follow up.
There are cheap planes that uses solid steel blades, usually sold in Japanese DIY hardware stores (but usually not in specialized tool shops.)

Are these sold in Oz, anywhere?

**Schtoo** · 7th March 2007, 01:52 AM

Wakaranai...

**Clinton1** · 9th March 2007, 03:09 AM

I think So is asking if "the cheap Japanese planes that have a solid blades(not laminated)" are sold in Aus or not?

or do I Wakaranai?

So, the SWMBO is sending you some $ tomorrow... when she opens her email..... Look forward to getting my hands on the chisel!

**soatoz** · 9th March 2007, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Clinton1

I think So is asking if "the cheap Japanese planes that have a solid blades(not laminated)" are sold in Aus or not?

or do I Wakaranai?

So, the SWMBO is sending you some $ tomorrow... when she opens her email..... Look forward to getting my hands on the chisel!

Yeah I think Schtoo meant he Wakaranai if those are sold here or not.

SWMBO,,, haha, I didn't know what it meant so I looked for it on the net.
You sound like a Japanese shokunin or something

I'm sure you'll love the chisel. The steel is just awesome from the age-hardening. But forgive me for the handle being a bit dirty. It's from the grueling coarse stone grinding. I should have wrapped a paper or something, while I was at it... But I guess it's no problem becuase you should definitely scrape off the laquer and polish it up, and oil it or something. You could French polish it if you don't want any hand marks on.

It would be much much better looking! I always do that for my chisels. I was going to do it for yours, but didn't have enough time. But I'm sure you can have fun doing it. That's how you get to know each other, right?

**Studley 2436** · 16th August 2007, 03:07 PM

You know I have several Japanese Planes and love them all a lot. My Iron planes sit unloved and unused now.

I think the Japanese ones outperform on Hardwood. My current addition is one I made from Tallowood. It has a 50º angle for the blade and a laminated chipbreaker. Mouth is set at 1mm. Going over fiddlebacked Spotted Gum it went well producing a very clean surface. It might be giving just the slightest bit of tearout but possibly if I had more patience there would be no tearout.

Studley

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