Thread: Sharpening Shun Knives

Originally Posted by ravna

Read somewhere in yours or others posts about the chalenges of single bevel knives, EG. getting cut...is this the case? Is there a knack to using this type of knife?

Suggest that you don't start with a single bevel knife, just in case you don't take to it. They are noticeably different but, in my experience, once you get a feel for them they are just another style of knife.

The double bevel options are the santoku and nakiri.

Originally Posted by ravna

.... am already into the stone vortex, am waiting for Schtoo to finish his exercise.

............... )

Yep, that's quite a comparative assessment that Schtoo has going. Some interesting results coming out of that. Can't wait for him to start on the natural waterstones....
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Originally Posted by NeilS

Suggest that you don't start with a single bevel knife, just in case you don't take to it. They are noticeably different but, in my experience, once you get a feel for them they are just another style of knife.

The double bevel options are the santoku and nakiri.

Absolutely. IMO, unless you are actually doing quite a bit of Japanese cooking, using Japanese techniques, there isn't much point bothering with single bevel knives. The "Western" style double bevel blades they make (Gyuto, Petty) and the Santoku give you all the benefits of Japanese knives (awesome steel, fine bevel angles, light weight, superb balance etc etc) with no learning curve and they will just slot into your existing cooking style.

I have one single bevel knife (a Yanagiba) and to be honest it doesn't get a lot of use - it is just too specialised. I suggest getting a good 240mm Gyuto and a 120mm Petty. That will cover 99% of all kitchen tasks. Some people prefer a Santoku to a Gyuto as a general chefs knife, but I prefer the extra length of the Gyuto.

For me, I can't go past a good hand-forged deba. Sure, the single-bevel is a challenge in inexperienced hands, maybe even somewhat dangerous. Once the correct grip and technique is learned, nothing comes close to the level of control, power, and flexibility a deba offers.

These knives are designed to be held with the blade pinched between thumb and forefinger, or the forefinger can be extended along the blade, not held purely by the handle. This is why these knives use a plain handle unadorned with finger grips.

In recent years I've moved away from cooking Japanese food exclusively, but I have not abandoned my single-bevel knives. In fact, with the exception of my bread and butter knives, I don't own a single western knife.

Anyway, back to sharpening Shun single-bevel knives.

Shun makes several misstatements in the brochure with regard to sharpening their singe-bevel knives.

The wide shinogi (or blade bevel) makes sharpening these knives on a whetsone practically effortless.

First, this statement only has meaning if it implies that the wide bevel facilitates sharpening at the correct angle. This statement is clearly incorrect because the angle that results from the single-bevel intersecting with the hollow-ground back is 4.7deg (1.5mm thick blade, 18mm long bevel). These thin (by Japanese knife standard) blades should be sharpened at 17-18deg. Anything less would be way too fragile.

In order to maximize the life of your blade, regular honing with a steel or ceramic rod will be necessary. Weekly honing will extend the time between sharpening significantly.

Secondly, they claim you can maintain their knives using a honing steel or ceramic rod. This statement is only correct for their western style knives and should NEVER be used on single-bevel knives.

And lastly,

When the time comes to sharpen these premium blades, we recommend using a whetstone, the Shun electric sharpener (specifically designed to sharpen Shun’s extreme blade angle),

whetstone yes. Electric sharpener - NEVER.

Single-bevel knives have hollow-ground backs for the same reason Japanese chisels and plane irons do - to facilitate flattening the back, and removing the burr formed by sharpening the shinogi.

I couldn't resist the prospect of a Deba and Neil suggested a look at this: click

Blue steel, Damascus.

Will report back once it's arrived and I've had a play.

Originally Posted by rsser

I couldn't resist the prospect of a Deba and Neil suggested a look at this: click

Blue steel, Damascus.

Will report back once it's arrived and I've had a play.

Looking forward to your review, Ern.

I did have a look for blue steel deba with plain rust resistant SS cladding, but couldn't find any. Understandable as the there would only be minimal benefit from adding a highly rust resistant cladding to one side of a deba when the other side (the ura) is fully exposed Shirogami or Aogami (white or blue) cutting steel which requires constant cleaning and drying to keep from rusting.

Likewise, I expect that the damascus cladding on most white and blue steel edge deba is not going to be selected for its high rust resistance, but will still be easier to maintain than the soft black iron cladding (jigane) on traditional deba, which I know a little about from experience...

I have noticed that rust resistant SS cladding is seen more often on fully clad knives, and with VG10 and similar SS steels edge knives where the rust resistance of the cutting steels and cladding are more closely matched.
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The Shimatami Deba has arrived and on the same day as the book Japanese Kitchen Knives by Nozaki.

'When the student is ready the book will appear' it seems ;-}

The knife is nicely finished, has plenty of heft and comes with a small secondary bevel. The book describes that as a koba and recommends it as contributing to edge life without compromising the cutting action.

The Damascus 'figure' is limited to the blade path (primary bevel? kiriba ) and strikes me as subtle and very attractive.

The book is very well done, covering three basic knife types and how to use and sharpen them; also steel types, sharpening, parts of the knife in Japanese and English and a number of recipes.

The photos are taken from the POV of the knife user and the text is clear.

The knife will get an outing on the weekend when I'll have a go at filleting a Snapper following the instructions in the book. Those include how to cut the head up for folks to eat but that might wait for another time.

Originally Posted by rsser

The knife is nicely finished, has plenty of heft and comes with a small secondary bevel. The book describes that as a koba and recommends it as contributing to edge life without compromising the cutting action.

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Hadn't noticed that small secondary bevel, but makes more sense with a deba which has to be robust for heavy duty cutting.

Pleased to hear that the finish lived up to expectations.

Looking forward to hearing how it performs in action, Ern, and any further reviews of the book after use.
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Hmm, well with the colder weather lamb supplanted the Snapper in the quarter master's ordering. So filleting will have to wait.

Just one comment about avoiding oxidation which I've found can also affect Damascus VG10 .... I've learned to run the knife under a hot tap for a bit til the blade is warm. Then dry and wipe on some oil. I'm using Japanese Camellia oil with paraffin added but expect ordinary cooking oil would work too.

Originally Posted by rsser

Just one comment about avoiding oxidation which I've found can also affect Damascus VG10 .... I've learned to run the knife under a hot tap for a bit til the blade is warm. Then dry and wipe on some oil. I'm using Japanese Camellia oil with paraffin added but expect ordinary cooking oil would work too.

I've been using camellia oil on my Japanese blades (kitchen and woodworking) but other highly anti-oxidizing oils like canola and olive are options. An oil that doesn't readily dry out is an advantage on woodworking blades, but not such an issue on kitchen blades that are regularly washed.
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Thanks for the voice of experience Neil.

And thanks Too Many Clamps for tips on knife holding.

With the book I mentioned it was possible to visualise that clearly. And in some cases you wrap a finger under the neck.

I had at some hard vegetables last night with the deba and must say the heft in the thing does give you a sense of power. With a single grind on the outside (RH) the geometry was working with me to push slices off the carrots. And the tip was good at separating the florets of a cauliflower ... (vegie curry).

Just as an aside, I wheeled my ageing Mum to a Japanese restaurant yesterday, at lunch time, one of these teppanyaki places, and the chef was on display prepping fish. So of course I stuck my nose in to see how. Salmon, coarse cuts with a French cooks knife; fine slicing with a SS narrow Deba.

Didn't have time to observe much but my Mum enjoyed the lunch box and is happy to go back, so next time.

In my youth I was a vegetarian inspired by a macrobiotic approach and so cooked a deal of Japanese food, and the old cookbook and memories are coming back.

Might get the interest of the two young vegos in the house.

Originally Posted by rsser

Just as an aside, I wheeled my ageing Mum to a Japanese restaurant yesterday, at lunch time, one of these teppanyaki places, and the chef was on display prepping fish. So of course I stuck my nose in to see how. Salmon, coarse cuts with a French cooks knife; fine slicing with a SS narrow Deba.

Are you sure it was a Deba? The normal tool for finely slicing fish is a Yangiba.

Yeah Stu. I don't trust my memory with these things so went back to the book.

Didn't have the length of the Y., and I saw that there's a narrow specialised Deba which looked more like it. Name starts with M

Originally Posted by rsser

Didn't have the length of the Y., and I saw that there's a narrow specialised Deba which looked more like it. Name starts with M

Probably a Mioroshi Deba.

For an extensive listing of J knife types see here. Warning: wander off that page at your peril...
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