Thread: Man Made Stone Suggestions

Originally Posted by Gnickrapon

Talk about throwing a cat amongst the pigeons . Currently trying to decide whether I prefer hard or soft stones now.

Sorry.....

More explanation.

I prefer soft stones for my J-knives.

I prefer harder stones for my woodworking tools.

IMO, you don't need to go to such a high a grit for kitchen knives as you do with woodworking tools.

J-kitchen knives are typically used with a slicing action. A slicing cut benefits from the micro-serrations left by a mid range (or natural) stone.

Most woodworking tools cut with a pushing action and benefit from the finer and more compressed edge that comes off a very fine and hard stone.

Select your stones for their primary purpose.

Unfortunately I do both, and therefore have lots of stones...

Originally Posted by NeilS

Sorry.....

More explanation.

I prefer soft stones for my J-knives.

I prefer harder stones for my woodworking tools.

IMO, you don't need to go to such a high a grit for kitchen knives as you do with woodworking tools.

J-kitchen knives are typically used with a slicing action. A slicing cut benefits from the micro-serrations left by a mid range (or natural) stone.

Most woodworking tools cut with a pushing action and benefit from the finer and more compressed edge that comes off a very fine and hard stone.

Select your stones for their primary purpose.

Unfortunately I do both, and therefore have lots of stones...

Out of interest, what's your sharpening kit for your knives? Or are they mostly naturals?

The pending arrival of my Tadafusa Santoku got me thinking about this thread again. I haven't gotten around to making a purchase yet.

Originally Posted by Gnickrapon

Out of interest, what's your sharpening kit for your knives? Or are they mostly naturals?

If I was only using man made stones, for knives I would use the following grits in either King or Sigma Power II, which are stones on the softer side. The Kings are underrated, at least for knives, IMO. As well as being soft they are also a bit muddy, and that is why woodworkers have moved away from them, so there might be some bargain 2nd hand ones out there...

#300 or #400 for repairs
#700 or #800 for removing the above abrasions after repair
#1k for refining profile
#2k or #4k for removing #1k abrasions
#5k or #6k for final edge

If you can only afford one stone, get the #1k
If you can only afford two stones, get the #1k and #5k
When you need to do some repairs, add the #300
If you are finding the leap from the #1k to the #5k too much, add an interim stone
If you are regularly doing repairs (eg have misusers in your kitchen ), the #700 is nice to have.

Other options for that last stone are Suehiro Rika 5k or Gesshin 5k, I would go for the Suehiro. Stu might be able to recommend equivalents.

My regular resharpening is all done on naturals nowadays, which is a luxury that I indulge (and at times frustrate) myself with. But, they are in no ways necessary to get a good working edge. There is a slight benefit in performance from the naturals, but it comes at a premium on the cost side, and increasingly so. The naturals also leave a finish which some of us enjoy, but that is as much to do with aesthetics as function.

If ever I have to go below #2k I go back to the man made stones above.

Neil

Thanks for that. I actually shot Stu an email (through his site) asking about the Rika and an Atoma #400 for flattening. What you've suggested is pretty much in line with what I had planned so I'm happy about that. I have a 1500 and 3000 already so I think I'll grab one of those 5000's and the 400 plate to round out my kit.

I will throw out a recommendation for the suehiro rika 5k. It is a great stone, esp for the price. I happen to have bought for my first waterstones two of the stones in the kit mentioned. I had never heard of Mr Martell. Great stones though. I bought the suehiro ad the beston 1k, not crazy about that one but its ok.
Currently using a cheap King 800 and 1200, the Rika, and a Naniwa Jyunpaku 8K. I am a chef at home and a wooden boat builder at work so I need to sharpen knives and tools so I also use naturals. In that kit I use a ayoto, a maruka kiita, an okuda suita, a Ohirayama Renge and a few others.
Please be careful getting into naturals. They are both a wonderful and terrible addiction. ;-)

Originally Posted by planebill

Please be careful getting into naturals. They are both a wonderful and terrible addiction. ;-)

+1 on that, Planebill.

But, if you would like to share your experience with the naturals you might like to do that on a thread that I have running on them, over here.

Neil

Gnickrapon

Just recently I purchased two sets of stones from Tools from Japan:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...5d14d11f4c7e08

If you go to the bottom of the page the Sigma Power Ceramic stones are there. I bought the 1000/6000/13000 set for myself and the 1000/6000 set for my son, who also has three JP kitchen knives.

The tripple stone set is a little bit of an indulgence, and the two stone set is probably ample for your purposes (and mine really). There are quite a few options available and I contacted Stu for his recommendations. I recommend that you do the same by email. Let him know exactly what type of knives you will be sharpening and in particular whether they are stainless or non-stainless. He will be able to offer suggestions for hard and soft stones in the varying grits.

I can say that I have been extremely pleased with my set which I use with chisels, plane blades and kitchen knives.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by planebill

I will throw out a recommendation for the suehiro rika 5k. It is a great stone, esp for the price. I happen to have bought for my first waterstones two of the stones in the kit mentioned. I had never heard of Mr Martell. Great stones though. I bought the suehiro ad the beston 1k, not crazy about that one but its ok.
Currently using a cheap King 800 and 1200, the Rika, and a Naniwa Jyunpaku 8K. I am a chef at home and a wooden boat builder at work so I need to sharpen knives and tools so I also use naturals. In that kit I use a ayoto, a maruka kiita, an okuda suita, a Ohirayama Renge and a few others.
Please be careful getting into naturals. They are both a wonderful and terrible addiction. ;-)

Suehiro Rika is on it's way! I was going to grab a Jyunpaku as well, but the guy at the place I was going to grab it from talked me into a different stone see here

What sort of soaking time am I looking at with the Rika if you don't mind? Cheers

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Gnickrapon

Just recently I purchased two sets of stones from Tools from Japan:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...5d14d11f4c7e08

If you go to the bottom of the page the Sigma Power Ceramic stones are there. I bought the 1000/6000/13000 set for myself and the 1000/6000 set for my son, who also has three JP kitchen knives.

The tripple stone set is a little bit of an indulgence, and the two stone set is probably ample for your purposes (and mine really). There are quite a few options available and I contacted Stu for his recommendations. I recommend that you do the same by email. Let him know exactly what type of knives you will be sharpening and in particular whether they are stainless or non-stainless. He will be able to offer suggestions for hard and soft stones in the varying grits.

I can say that I have been extremely pleased with my set which I use with chisels, plane blades and kitchen knives.

Regards
Paul

Cheers for that Paul,

I did actually check out that set from Stu and almost grabbed it, but I just couldn't justify it considering the stones in my collection already. I did end up grabbing the Rika stone from him though. Should arrive in the next day or so, can't wait to try it out!!

Cheers
Paul

So the Kit is 99% complete.

300 King
1500 XXL Naniwa Lobster
3000 Naniwa (cheap stone)
5000 Suehiro Rika
9000 Hishiboshi Karasu (will arrive in the next day or so)

Atoma #400

Just on the Atoma, I have heard that you should seal the edges (between the plate and the paper) but all of the threads about this are quite old. Something to do with rusting??? Is this something I should look at doing?

Cheers
Paul

Originally Posted by Gnickrapon

9000 Hishiboshi Karasu (will arrive in the next day or so)



Just on the Atoma, I have heard that you should seal the edges (between the plate and the paper) but all of the threads about this are quite old. Something to do with rusting??? Is this something I should look at doing?

Paul - I have used mine as it was supplied for a few years now and never noticed any rust.

The base plate is aluminium (alumina) so no 'rusting' issues there, and as far as I can see there is no evidence of it on the diamond substrate, at least on mine. Unless Tsuboman changed something since I purchased mine seven years ago, it should be OK as it is. Stu can advise you.

I also have a Hishiboshi Karasu 9k coming from So-san. I'm very interested to see how well that 'semi-natural' stone performs. If it goes well it will certainly be a more economical alternative to the ridgy-didge naturals.

Neil

Cheers for that Neil. I thought it sounded a little odd considering it's aluminum.

Glad to hear you're grabbing a Karasu as well. That will give everyone a better idea of exactly how good it is given your experience with these things.

Paul

I spend some time maintaining wood carving tools as Ècarving sharp.È Better than scalpel sharp.
What are È J knives É Are they the typical crooked knives used for carving as you will find all over the world.

When you consider synthetic Japanese sharpening stones, do the makers specify not only nominal
grit size and chemistry but binder type, concentration ratio and grit spacing in the matrix.
Otherwise they are crap = itès a Brand war and a shot in the dark.

Originally Posted by Robson Valley

What are J knives Are they the typical crooked knives used for carving as you will find all over the world.

When you consider synthetic Japanese sharpening stones, do the makers specify not only nominal
grit size and chemistry but binder type, concentration ratio and grit spacing in the matrix.
Otherwise they are crap = itès a Brand war and a shot in the dark.

RV, if you mean crooked knives like these, then no.

We are just using 'J-knife' here as shorthand for Japanese knife.

A typical synthetic Japanese sharpening stone is not usually specified beyond grit size. These stones are manufactured to fine tolerances (for our purposes) and are consistent, as outlined here. We make decisions on what to buy based on the shared experience and testing by other users, and by discussing what we need with our suppliers.

eg

Waterstone testing, the results. Part I.

Waterstone testing, the results. Part II.

I must admit that I have only been sharpening blades for 55 years, but in that time would have used about every sharpening technique and abrasive going, and couldn't say from my experience that any of the synthetic waterstones I use or their makers are as you describe.

BTW, I was impressed with Mt Robson when I was up your way. Even have a few specy photos somewhere of the sun setting on its snowy peak.

Neil

Thank you, Neil. Learned something new.
I carve with a dozen crooked knives. Two are a pair of Mora #171 Equus hook knives (with the scorp-like hook at the tip) and I hafted the other 10 crooked blades in the Pacific Northwest native carvers' tradition. Very versatile. My handles are all glue-ups of mahogany & rosewood (shop junk) from 150 - 250mm in length. The dogleg planer knife handle is 450mm in willow, for smoothing split wood surfaces. Some blade shapes have a distinct 'J' shape sweep, hence my question. Mora (Frost Brand) #162, #163 & #164 have greater sweeps for bowls and kuksa.
I have a single combo 1K/4K synthetic from Lee Valley for use with all my Pfeil gouges and other carving tools.
It has been adequate but I'd like to "try-before-I-buy" to drop some serious coin.
Hence my interest in learning more about the Japanese quality stones. Only 15 years of "carving sharp" for me.

I live about 80km west of Mt Robson. Seems a rare day to see the top!
Robson is shy of 13,000'. Apparently, a really ugly hill to climb.
I enjoy having the scenery arranged vertically but there's just 7,000 - 9,000' around the village.
Maybe sounds glamorous until you see the sun go behind the mountains at 1:52PM on the solstice.