Thread: white + blue steel

Hi Woodie One,

Not sure if this might be it, but I'd say it covers what you're looking for.

Tools from Japan. Website. Click on the "Steel and the woodworker" link.

(Someone should do a chart on what the various types of steels look like when they're rusty. And dull.)

Thanks very much Sheets - this is very informative and useful!

This is kind of self promoting, but was it this post on my blog?

One steel, Two steel, White steel, Blue steel | giant Cypress

Dear wilburpan,

Yes, this is the one, which I discovered when I was looking for info on tapping out blades.

Many thanks indeed - I have bookmarked giant cypress, so I can keep up with your most informative and interesting blogs.

Best wishes

Originally Posted by wilburpan

This is kind of self promoting, but was it this post on my blog?

One steel, Two steel, White steel, Blue steel | giant Cypress

Hi Wilbur,

Good article.

However, I think you will find there is no correlation between a tool's price and the choice of steel (excluding the "exotics" like Togo and Tamahagane). What drives the prices up is not whether its "blue" or "white", but the labour involved in the making (more about fit-and-finish, multi-hollows, textured/patterned surface and handle wood/dai maker, etc.) and the reputation of the maker.

Much like O1 and A2, which most makers offer as a choice at equal prices, there isn't enough cost differential between blue and white to justify charging more for one over the other (not that I can show you current prices/lb or ton to prove it).

Its my opinion that the choice of "white" steel for most lower-cost tools is because its easier to sharpen. Users at that end of the scale know that a tool will eventually get dull and need to be sharpened (no matter how poorly)- no need to have them frustrated in trying to get a tool back into use.

Anyone who truly needs a long lasting edge will opt for HSS (which I see eventually supplanting "blue") and is more and more being offered by the bigger makers (tho' they usually describe it as ideal for hard and difficult woods, it will be seen to offer advantages in any wood species, and as it can be taken to a grinder without risk of over heating, it will appeal to anyone who dislikes the time involved with hand sharpening).

"White" steel will probably always be offered because it can take a better edge (and responds better to a blacksmith's touch) and, as Schtoo says, in Japan, the edge is everything.

Originally Posted by Sheets

, there isn't enough cost differential between blue and white to justify charging more for one over the other (not that I can show you current prices/lb or ton to prove it).

Likewise, I don't know what the differential is in the cost of the two steels, but this listing of prices of finished items does seem to indicate that the blue must be more expensive. (I must say I do love the durability of Wantanabe's blue steel kitchen knives. The few extra $s is well worth it, IMO.)

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Originally Posted by NeilS

Likewise, I don't know what the differential is in the cost of the two steels, but this listing of prices of finished items does seem to indicate that the blue must be more expensive. (I must say I do love the durability of Wantanabe's blue steel kitchen knives. The few extra is well worth it, IMO.)

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Its nice to see such a simple price comparison. The problem with nomi and kanna is there is never an identical tool by the same smith offered with the only difference being the steel. You can find equally expensive white or blue steel edges, but there is always some other difference which makes deciding if blue costs more than white in general. So for woodworking tools, I still think that prices don't really reflect the choice of white or blue steel (and that's certainly only my opinion - it would be nice to see the price Hitachi charges for the two and whether there is a significant difference).

Thought I'd go shopping for steel on-line. I wanted to see if I could find a supply price which would definitively answer the question about the cost of steel type from the manufacturer.

Well, not so easy (I found lots of suppliers of A2 and O1/W, but difficult to say why there are price differences as stock is usually not identical and who's to say that demand doesn't drive prices more than the material itself?).

But I came across this link:

Hitachi Metals, Ltd. > Products > Tooling, Tool Steel, Mold & Die

which some of you may find interesting (no prices, but lots of technical data on just about every type of steel Hitachi produces. Sadly, not much about steels for blades).

p.s., click and download the PDF, GENERAL CATALOG OF YSS TOOL STEELS (PDF:3,522KB). Most of the other links say little specific.

And, here is a one-pager on Hitachi's Yasuki Steel (“White and Blue Paper Steel”), again no prices.

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Originally Posted by Sheets

Hi Wilbur,

Good article.

However, I think you will find there is no correlation between a tool's price and the choice of steel (excluding the "exotics" like Togo and Tamahagane). What drives the prices up is not whether its "blue" or "white", but the labour involved in the making (more about fit-and-finish, multi-hollows, textured/patterned surface and handle wood/dai maker, etc.) and the reputation of the maker.

Actually, I think that is exactly the point I'm making for the higher end tools:

As you move up the ladder of price points of Japanese tools....high end chisels and plane blades of both white and blue steel, where the cost more is a reflection of the skills and experience of the tool maker.

It's at the low end that there seems to be a persistent price differential between white and blue steel tools: Matsumura chisels are consistently cheaper in the white steel version vs. the blue steel version, and the Koetsu (white steel) and Daishin (blue steel) specialty planes that Hida Tool carries seem to follow the same pattern. There may be exceptions to this pattern, but overall this is what I've observed.

When it comes to steel it's sort of... That's a steel.

People pay way too much time on what kind of steel is used today, the purity and forging process is much more important. A good smith can take YS#2 and purify it to Tamahagane levels (1.2-1.7% carbon) and thus be able to take on roughly the same identity as a good and pure steel like WS#1.

BS#1 and #2 is harder to work with than WS#1 and #2, hence you see a price difference. But again, depending on how it was forged you can be left with one of the most ultimate tools possible or complete junk regardless of what steel.
The biggest difference is that BS#1 has some additional minerals mixed in like Kobalt , less pure and such to make it more versatile in harsher environments.

Give a properly pine-forged WS#2 20 years or so of age hardening and it will easily surpass WS#1.

So Sheets is right on the money. Depending on if you see a handmade hoop, selected quality stock oak, carefully filed neck, it all goes into the price of the finished product. So really, don't stare yourself blind only on the steel.
When it comes to the rare steels then all I'll say is that I will have my lifetime supply of tools before the smiths go out of business