Thread: Diy

Originally Posted by silentC

I said 'scope' not 'intelligence'. Do you know many non-trades people who are conversant with electrical engineering theory and Australian wiring standards? That's not to say they are not capable of being so, but how many of them are? And would you recommend someone undertake wiring their house without it?

The point is, like it or not you have to be a qualified electrician to do any domestic wiring in Australia, likewise all plumbing must be carried out by a licensed plumber. Getting on here and advocating that people do their own wiring or plumbing, regardless of how clever they are, is not a good idea for that reason alone.

Scope vs Intelligence is just semantics in my view.

Do I know many non-trades people who are conversant with electrical engineering theory and Australian wiring standards? - I work for EnergyAustralia and know hundreds of them from senior line workers to electrical engineers with Masters & PhD's.

The wiring of domestic premises isn't black box wizardry or trying to understand String Theory or even as difficult as simple calculus. In fact you barely even require electrical engineering theory past I=E/R & W= VxA to any depth as this work is normally done by a Trades person. This is not a slight on the Trades person but an assessment of AS3000 as applied to the average domestic installation. Alternatively industrial premises represent a higher order of ability especially when dealing with 3 phase and high voltage systems which the average sparkie should be capable of.

Standing behind a regulation just because its there is why the dark ages lasted so long. The free thinking individual was blinkered by the church into believing all sorts of rubbish just as these laws would seem to protect the income of the plumber or electrical service provider. If this were not the case why is there no home builder electrical or plumber qualification as is provided in most other technologically advanced countries. You can't tell me that the existance of this regulation stops ever single person from carrying out their own mods and if everbody was doing such a bad job why aren't there more house fires attributed to unauthorised electricals. Sure the majority of people should not do their own electricals & plumbing without some formal education and/or at least some study of the subject.

BTW I DIDN"T advocate that everbody should do their own electricals & plumbing regardless of how clever they; are but questioned your concept of the average DIYer in this forum. Just because a person is not a trades person doesn't mean that they lack the capacity (read that as scope or intelligence or what ever you like) to perform a complex task which may or may not require the reading and comprehension of reference documents such as Australian Standards.

Originally Posted by scope

noun 1. extent or range of view, outlook, application, operation, effectiveness

Originally Posted by intelligence

noun 1. capacity for understanding; aptitude in grasping truths, facts, meaning, etc

There's a BIG difference in my view and it's not just semantics.


Maybe I can simplify things a bit so that you can stop constructing strawman arguments to shoot down.

1. Do you think that unqualified people should do their own wiring and plumbing, despite the fact that it is illegal to do so?

2. Do you think unqualified people on these forums should give advice to other unqualified people about how to do their own wiring or plumbing?

Simple really.

Originally Posted by silentC

There's a BIG difference in my view and it's not just semantics.


Maybe I can simplify things a bit so that you can stop constructing strawman arguments to shoot down.

1. Do you think that unqualified people should do their own wiring and plumbing, despite the fact that it is illegal to do so?

2. Do you think unqualified people on these forums should give advice to other unqualified people about how to do their own wiring or plumbing?

Simple really.

To answer:

1 Yes (qualified) I do not advocate for ALL persons, only those with a capacity/ability to read, understand and implement the technical requirements as define by AS3000. A qualification is not an indicator of someones capacity to sucessfully complete a task.

2 Yes (qualified) A sample of this advice could be: "I recommend you get a sparkie as you don't seem to have sufficient understanding". Asking a question in the first place would be a good indicator of this.

These are very simplistic questions to which I have supplied a deservedly simplistic reply.

only those with a capacity/ability to read, understand and implement the technical requirements as define by AS3000

How do you propose to assess this?

Your sample 'advice' is effectively the same as answering no to question 2.

I don't necessarily agree with the current system. I'd like to be able to do my own wiring (legally) too. In the context of Christopha's comments, in which my comments were made, I don't think people who have to ask how to do it here should be doing their own wiring. And I don't think other people should be encouraging them to try it. If they answered all queries with your sample advice, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

A bit off topic but, now ask the same questions regarding getting in a qualified plumber/sparkie when your house is 100km from the nearest town. It doesn't make it any less illegal, but do people in remote areas have more of a right to be doing that type of work? Regardless of theyr'e ability to read or write.

Current (no pun intended) system is a bit of a crock, but it is the system we have to live with.

Case in point;
All my machines come from Austria without electrical plugs on them due to the difference between European plugs and Australian plugs. It is easy enough for me (or my colleagues) to stick a plug on the machine before it gets shipped out, and costs us less than $20 for the plug. BUT - it's not worth it to us. None of us are licensed electricians and therefore should not be attaching plugs to machines. We have to advise all purchasers of our machines that they need to have a licensed electrician either attach a plug or hardwire the machine. And that electrician needs to be on hand during installation so that our technician can run a few bits of timber through the machine to ensure its accuracy before he leaves.

This adds a fair bit to the cost of the installation of a machine to our customer, but there is no way around it. Our technician is currently undergoing a TAFE course that will allow him to connect machines to a power supply, but he will charge us $100 for it, which obviously we need to pass on to the customer.

Customers ask me if it is OK if they attach a plug themselves. Sure. But if something goes wrong due to bad connection, then obviously everyone knows where the fault lies. At least if you hire an electrician then you can blame him / her.

It is so stupid. It is a simple operation that we can do here and just charge the customer for the plug (or even throw it in for nix - it's only $20!) but in todays litigous (spelling? correct word, even??) society it just isn't worth our while touching it.

My $0.02 worth.

Incidentally, not all of our machines need installing by a tech. Most of the Hammer machines don't need a technician. Do it yourself.....it's fun!

If it was I to answer a question, I would consider the context in which it was asked ie

Q. What size wire would I use to add another power point?

A. You should get a sparky

or

Q. My shed is 120m away from my residential meter board and I need to cater for the following loads in amps at the same time. AS3000 says a minimum of 4sq mm but I thinks 6sq mm might be better. What do you think.


A. I think that 6sq mm might be OK but check against size of conduit for heat disapation or some such reply

Comment: As you can see the first question clearly lacks any understanding about domestic wiring whereas second question showed some knowledge of the standard and therfore an educated discussion can follow

Originally Posted by Wood Borer

I know and respect all the characters involved including Christopha. Regrettably some people have been hurt.

Whilst I disagreed with Christopha's outburst, and debated the question of tiling over existing tiles, I for one would not like to see Christopha being banned over it.

Debate on issues is healthy and constructive and some of the points raised by Christopha, especially advice regarding electrical work and plumbing, I agree with. It was just the manner I disagreed with.

I also have met Christopha and consider him a mate, so I readily accept Daddles comments, and wish for Christopha's quick return to the board.

Peter.

I advocate nothing unless Im paid my brief fee

Silent, all I said was that its not rocket science. For me its damn easy. I've got sparky mates who can come around and do the meter box (or the lot) for nothing in any event.

Both plumbing and electrical is about supply and switches (taps for water). I plan all the rough in before I do it, and, its legal. The qualified mates connect to the supply only because they insist that I ask them to do it because of what Ive done for them in the past.

Even if this wasnt the case I feel confident enough to do it myself notwithstanding any regulations to the contrary.

If you can do what the apprentice usually does then go for it.

I've had to go through more AS's than I care to remember as well as the BCA. It aint rocket science.

Something I forgot to mention in the last post:

The manner in which I would reply to an electrical question is far different to that of plumbing.

I cannot see justification in the regulations prohibiting the common man from conducting his own personal plumbing works. Whilst I'm sure that there will be many a plumber who states its to protect the community from the idiot who connects his sewerage to his mains, I believe this to be near on impossible in the first place. If some knucklehead wants to add another tap to his system and it leaks like a sieve, then so what. It wont cause an injury much less a fatality as electricity might.

The only minor concern I have to this is possibly where the water pipes are still being used as the residential earth but then again if you didn't feel any tingle when using the water system, chances are your earth is not being utilised by a fault.

Originally Posted by boban

I advocate nothing unless Im paid my brief fee

.

sounds fair enough!

So it seems that you have just set the precedent that tradies should charge for the advice they offer on these forums

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Whilst I disagreed with Christopha's outburst, and debated the question of tiling over existing tiles, I for one would not like to see Christopha being banned over it.

Debate on issues is healthy and constructive and some of the points raised by Christopha, especially advice regarding electrical work and plumbing, I agree with. It was just the manner I disagreed with.

I also have met Christopha and consider him a mate, so I readily accept Daddles comments, and wish for Christopha's quick return to the board.

Peter.

Peter,

I think the crux of it is that Christopha has managed to deeply offend Neil.

And AFAIK, they have a fair bit of personal history (after all, who does Neil's turning demos at the shows?). I don't know either of them personally so I figure it's best for me to stay out of it.

This is just my take on it of course.

I'd be interested in hearing peoples views on the following scenarios:

1. You are not a qualified electrician or an apprentice to an electrician. You run your own wiring in your new house or extension and your sparky mate hooks it up to the board for you. Because he trusts you, he doesn't check your work, yet by connecting it he is certifing it. You have made a gross error and your house burns down as a result. Who is legally responsible?

2. You provide someone on the forum with the information they need to wire up a stove. They are not a licensed sparky and neither are you. Their wife is electrocuted whilst basting a roast chook. Who is responsible? Does it make any difference if you are a licensed sparky?

3. Same as scenario 2 except the advice is given by a Bunnings employee in a Bunnings store.

4. Would you feel personally responsible if someone was hurt or did some damage to their property after following advice you have given?

5. Do you feel it's OK to break a law if, in your opinion, it is a stupid one or it's a victimless crime?

I have my own answers to these questions but I'd like to hear yours.

IMO :

1. The sparky who certified it.

2. You and it makes no difference if you are a sparky. Also it may be a conspiracy to commit a crime which is another offence.

3. Same as 2.

4. Yes.

5. No, and there is no such thing as a victimless crime. If you don't agree with a law try changing it legally.

Finally if you do break it then don't advertise it or encourage others to do likewise for you may need lots of money to pay the compensation claims.

Peter.