Thread: SawStop Comes To Australia!

To be fair Lignum, it is good for companies.

If the saw can save an employee a finger then it is not such a bad idea for the employer. Saves lot of money in compensation too. Don’t you think?

Originally Posted by Wongo

To be fair Lignum, it is good for companies.

If the saw can save an employee a finger then it is not such a bad idea for the employer. Saves lot of money in compensation too. Don’t you think?

What businesses would use one? Is it available on a full size slider for cabinet shops, if not, its still a gimmick

[Maybe one day the idea will catch on for all saws at a reasonable price, that will be ok]

Originally Posted by Lignum

My thoughts. Sawstop = Expensive gimmick.

Originally Posted by Lignum

What businesses would use one? Is it available on a full size slider for cabinet shops, if not, its still a gimmick

Hi Lig,

Gimmick, eh?

The same way that airbags in vehicles are gimmicks?

This technology is the final safety net in a table saw accident. Yes - it is unique and provides and excellent selling point for people like me. BUT! There are many people (businesses included) that would appreciate this sort of "insurance" in their workshop.

No - it is not yet available on a sliding table panel saw, although the good folks at SawStop tell us that it is in their long-term plans. The machine is not designed (nor priced) to compete with the panel saws that are prevalent in the Australian woodworking industry's workshops. It will not be promoted to kitchen manufacturers or other users of whiteboard or similar panel products. It is pitched to compete against the likes of the cabinet saws produced by Jet, Delta, etc.

And there is no escaping the fact that it is more expensive than all of its competitors.

Why?

OK - it has the safety feature. Over 9000 SawStops have been sold so far, and the SawStop company have documented evidence of over 300 'finger saves'. This is a fair percentage, but it still means that most users haven't had the need to utilise the brake system.

The good news is that the saw had to be built from the ground up to accommodate the forces that would be imposed on the unit once the brake system activated. We are talking about much larger bearings (between 10 - 30% more than opposition), and 25% more cast iron than its closest competitor.

In short, the machine is BEEFY, which makes the day-to-day use of this saw a pleasure and the extra dollars seem worthwhile. Plus it has the safety system.

Gimmick? I can see why you would think that.
I prefer to see it as a good idea that has finally come to fruition and now has a proven track record.

And having played with a SawStop machine for the majority of today, I also like to see it as a great cabinet saw, that will compete quite healthily with other cabinet saws.

As soon as the panel saw becomes available, I will let you know.

Originally Posted by Lignum

What businesses would use one? Is it available on a full size slider for cabinet shops, if not, its still a gimmick

[Maybe one day the idea will catch on for all saws at a reasonable price, that will be ok]

I recall Rob Lee saying Lee Valley have been replacing all their saws (voluntarily) and are probably finished by now.

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

Gimmick, eh?

I know it stops when it comes into contact with skin, and yeh i know it will stop a finger being cut off. But whos fingers will be saved? I doubt 95% of members on this forum would fork out 5500k for it, and its the inexperienced that need this technology most.

It would be interesting to get up to date stats on the % of lost fingers from cabinet/panel saws for both hobby and business. I remember 5 or 6 years back reading a bit in Fine woodworking that over 70% of finger amputations and severe cuts were from users trying to dodge saftey guards. I know ov 2 blokes in 17 years who have chopped the tops of there fingers and they were very careless workers to start with, so should all businesses swap to a sawstop just because of a few careless idiots? (i know these are the ones who should be protected}

The day when this technology is in ALL saws from Triton to Felders then it will be a bonus, but for now im not remotley interested in it one bit.




Now Brendon, are you going to do a video and post it showing you attempting to push your finger through the spinning blade? As a salesman you will earn my ut most respect on this subject if you do. I really hope so



[edit- i do think this will be a fantastic addition to schools]

Originally Posted by outback

No worries spending money on saving my pinkies, but it would be a tad expensive if the basic saw was a Triton..

But isnt the idea to save the fingers getting lopped off? So wouldnt a $1900 sawstop/triton be good value then

so should all businesses swap to a sawstop just because of a few idiots?


That's the bottom line these days ,you have to protect the few idiots .


Kev

I have a few points that I would like to make:

1. It is not a fair comparison of the Sawstop with the Triton. The true comparison is with the TSC-10HB and some of the Felders. I look forward to AWR doing a comparison of 10" Table saws, then we can see how the table saw stacks up as a saw against what I reckon is the saw most would regard as the leader on price/value/quality, and the best on quality alone at the moment.
2. Safety equipment is always controversial - I remember people saying in the 60's that seat belts in cars were dangerous! Now we take the wearing of seat belts to be axiomatically a good thing to save lives and reduce injuries.
3. Most safety equipment makes using the tool harder - look at guard fencing etc. Sawstop seems to be a step up from that and, like airbags in a car, only operates when it is needed and otherwise stays out of the way allowing the operator to get on with doing the job the most effective way.
4. The discussion so far has focussed on operator carelessness (protecting idiots) - accidents happen and often despite operators taking care and concentrating, because of unexpected external factors - like someone coming unannounced into the workshop, maybe a courier or a customer or a practical joke or a strip-a-gram to celebrate someone's birthday, or at home a wife or a kid - which distracts the operator. That is the human weak link which no amount of training and no amount of carefulness on the part of the operator can eliminate. Reading the reports of workers comp cases shows how often this happens. So Sawstop isn't just for the self-admittedly careless, but also for the true professional who really concentrates (to the extent of becoming absorbed in his/her work). The problem for the professional is not eh Sawstop but the saw it is currently fitted to.
5. Even if an individual decides that he or she doesn't want or need Sawstop, that doesn't mean that it is a gimmick. Life is full of decisions where one values features and decides whether the feature is worth the price. If a person decides that the feature is not for them, that's fine, but it doesn't mean the feature is a gimmick, it means that it is one they don't think is value or needed or desirable (in each case, for them).

I know that I am thinking very seriously about looking at the Sawstop when I make the inevitable upgrade from Triton to TS. The problem is that there is quite a lot of extra weeks of saving!!

There's no doubt that things like safety belts save lives but they do not reduce motor vehicle accidents in fact there is some evidence that in some places in the world that accidents per 100,000 cars have increased after introduction of seatbelts and the resulting unconscious carelessness arising from "I'm wearing a seatbelt" causes other problems. The same outcome applies to the introduction of any safety gear. What we need to be concerned about is a partial application of safety technology - sure schools and companies will introduce them but will an accompanying safety campaign follow reminding students etc that the majority of other saws do not have this feature. As it is not in the commerical interest of sawstop to do this who will? Unfortunately I see either no overall reduction of and maybe even a rise in fingers being cut off per 10,000 saws sold until either this sort of technology becomes standard or an expensive safety campaign is adopted. Should sawstop pull their product? - of course not - how long will it be before all other saws have this - I guess it depends on how how much chinese fingers are worth and how soon they copy it.

It would be interesting to know how much of the extra cost of a sawstop is R&D cost recovery, additional build unit cost, market advantage markup and "new tech" markup. My guess it is mainly the last 2? If sawstop was serious about reducing finger amputation they could consider licencing that IP at a minimal cost as soon as their R&D costs have been recovered. There must be a point at which $5 net per saw is worth a lot more than the profit from 9000 saws.

Originally Posted by BobL

If sawstop was serious about reducing finger amputation they could consider licencing that IP at a minimal cost as soon as their R&D costs have been recovered. There must be a point at which $5 net per saw is worth a lot more than the profit from 9000 saws.

I'm afraid you are a bit behind the curve. Here in the States the argument over licensing the SawStop technology has been hot, heavy, and plenty of it. Mr. Gass wants 8% for a license, which will add about $80USD to the cost of the typical table saw, plus the cost of the mechanism and the labour to install it. Delta, et al. balked at the price.

SawStop then petitioned the US Government to make it a mandatory safety device, but that effort has fizzled so far.

OTOH, I have seen and tested the saw itself and it is top-notch. Excellent fit and finish. They have decided to market the saw themselves at this point. They can sell it for whatever they think the market will bear. If the market won't pay it, they can reduce price or stop manufacture. So far, the market is paying it.

Originally Posted by Honorary Bloke

They have decided to market the saw themselves at this point. They can sell it for whatever they think the market will bear. If the market won't pay it, they can reduce price or stop manufacture. So far, the market is paying it.

Is the saw over engineered? i understand it needs to be strong because of the forces involved, but it has the option of a 7hp motor. I know the big Delta has a 7.5hp motor but that is a monster unit (my dream saw) but why is this sawstop constructed for such power

And on the market paying. Over in the US cabinet saws appear to be so much more popular than the rest of the world where panell saws reign supreme. I havnt been in a cabinet shop yet who employ workers and use a cabinet type saw, they all have panel saws. So as far as the industry goes here i doubt it will generate the same % of sales as in the US. I might be wrong because Gabbet must have done there research.

Just been reading the tablesaw comparison tests in FWW #184. The 2 selections for Best Overall were the Powermatic PM2000 and the Sawstop 31230.

They make the point that if you want to use a dado blade on the Sawstop, you need a different cartridge.

They also say that a standard replacement cartridge for the Sawstip in the US is $US80, or as they say "cheaper than a hand surgeon and a stay in hospital".

The Sawstop scored highly in most criteria, so it doesn't just rely on its' "gimmick" to sell the saw. In the US the saw has a RRP of $US3270 with extra charged for extension table and legs, against the Powermatic PM2000 at $US2100 with extension table and legs included.

Originally Posted by Big Shed

The Sawstop scored highly in most criteria, so it doesn't just rely on its' "gimmick" to sell the saw. In the US the saw has a RRP of with extra charged for extension table and legs, against the Powermatic PM2000 at with extension table and legs included.

Any saw that retails for that sort of money would be a quality unit. Take out the stop mechanism and what do you have? A standard cabinet saw. so its obvious the stop is the unique sales pitch (or gimick ) The price difference between the sawstop and powermatic is huge, give me the powermatic anyday and the change will go towards other equipment. And i have never said its no good or doesnt work, its just and expensive piece of equipment thats not that important. Woodworking is full of spinning blades, so do we need a stop on the buzzer, router, radial arm etc?

Agree Lignum, considering how good the Powermatic PM2000 is ( after all I have its' clone), I would need a lot of convincing to spend that extra money on the safety device.

I also agree that there are other dangers lurking in the workshop and not only from stationary machines.

Lignum maybe Brendon should bring one around so you can try it out for yourself. I remember someone complaining something similar when a new style of "dowler" was released. Now it is a very valued tool.

I believe that any innovation that makes it safer is something that should be seriously looked at.If the company marketing it prices it out of the market, it wont be long before the patent expires and then it will become standard. Otherwise another company will sort out a similar type of product that will give similar results.

just my 2c.

Shane.