Thread: SawStop Comes To Australia!

Originally Posted by Lignum

if i volunteer to put my finger into the spinning blade as a human demo, can i get 20% off the retail value?

No.

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

Mind you, I'm not ruling it out. I'm doing a show in Newcastle at the beginning of March. I might pack a video camera and a six pack of Dutch Courage and see what happens on the final demo.......no promises though.

this sounds good.

is this at the crafts expo or a private function or something?

Independant statistics would be great, but i have a feeling you are going to use Sawstops own statistics

Yeah. I did use SawStops Statistics from the US. I thought I made that clear? The feedback of "finger saves" is 70% industry, 20% education and 10% hobby. These are the stats from SawStop in the US.
I make no claims that this would be reflected here.

If you could possibly point me in the direction of the Australian statistics for similar accidents then I would be most appreciative.

First, how do you know the fingers were saved?

The machine cut off before any evidence of a serious injury occured. I have a few little scars from years of getting a bit to close to blades, but i still have my fingers. So implying 270 were saved isnt really accurate. The machine cut out and a little cut was recorded, but to suggest they all saved an amputation is nonsense. Sawstop spin doctoring, and thats fine as most manufacturers and companies like to stretch the truth a little.

I'll cop that.

Fact is that you can still hurt yourself on a SawStop machine. It is all relative to speed.

The blade stops in less than 5 milliseconds. If you feed your timber through at 300mm per second then you might be inflicted with a 0.9mm deep wound.

If you wish to cut timber at 600mm per second ( ) then it would be 1.8mm depth of cut.

The 270 cases that I have quoted comes from SawStop. Granted. Some of them may have possibly been only nicks.....but how do you discern?

These 270 felt the need to provide feedback to SawStop and thank them for their product. I am sure that the brake mechanism has activated many more times than SawStop know.

Its good publicity and any publicity is good publicity, right?

Yes.

Maybe the manufacturers were smart enough to realise the majority wouldnt pay and extra 30-40% for the machine they want. Would i buy a Super saw for $2600 or a TS10HB for $2800... no way.

Really? Yet you talk about purchasing a Felder machine?? For what reason? Nice sliding table? Check. Plenty of cast-iron? Check.
Price? $15,000. PLUS GST!!!

Yet you have no qualms? I don't get it...
You would pay extra dollars for extra quality in a 'brand-name', but would never pay extra dollars for a machine that has plenty of day-to-day features with a safety 'gimmick'.

Contradictions are rife tonight, Lignum.

You didnt answer my original question. I did mention it needs to be stronger because of the braking system, but i asked why is a 10" cabinet saw engineered to take a 7hp motor? Thats like a V8 in a Mini Moke

I kind of wonder the same myself. It seems silly to have a 10" cabinet saw with a 7.5hp motor. We are not going to import that as a standard, but if someone really wants it then we will get it for them.

after all FWW compared the two pretty much the same minus the stop feature.

Really? Please forward the article to me.

Not a good analogy. The Saw stop is "only" a 10" cabinet saw and as you pointed out at $5500 its waaaaaaay over priced for that size saw, and the Felders are quiet a few classes above it, and even i would (if i had the money) buy a Felder... Worth every cent

Wrong
Excellent analogy!

There is only a certain percentage of folks that attend the woodworking shows that would be in the market for a Felder machine. It is a very small percentage.

There is also only a small amount of punters that will go to a woodwork show looking for a cabinet saw for $5.5k that won't chop their fingers off.

Limited market, And I reckon there is a bigger percentage (for the WWW Shows) with SawStop than Felder.

Yes/no. Schools have a set budget and if they can get a TS10HB for under $2000, thats a lot of change for other equipment.

I'm not going to argue with you about this....but I reckon I've got a good chance given the safety features and the legislation that is involved in State Schools.

Read em all, no need

Read 'em again. I think you need to.

Originally Posted by ss_11000

this sounds good.

is this at the crafts expo or a private function or something?

Stirlo - it is at the Crafts Expo. That thingy what helps out the hospital. I'll be there.

With my sausage,

Bun fight! Bun fight! Roll up for the show.

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

Stirlo - it is at the Crafts Expo. That thingy what helps out the hospital. I'll be there.

With my sausage,

well, i will have to make sure i go then. just to see you cut off ya finger

Airbags and Seat belts, are made for a situation that we don't have control on...if somebody will tell me that, when he is working on the table saw, there are situations that he does not have control on them...it means that his technic and /or planning ahead are wrong and he must change his technic to have full control on a machine that he knows that every "loss of control" will cost him dearly....

I don't think that you would like to hear (if you can still hear) from your 747 Captain....after the crash..."sorry, but I lost control and, you know...accidents can happen" because on the wall of every dispatch room it's written in very big letters
"Accidents do not happen - they are caused"
Of course I'm talking about human error and not machine fault...

I replied to many threads on the SS and asked "can you give me a scenario that the SS will save your fingers...I mean, something like - "I work without the guard" or, "I'm pushing the wood while my fingers are 3mm from the blade" or "I push the wood while my hand in-line with the blade and it might slip and...." or "I'm removing the small off-cuts with my fingers very close to the blade" and alike......usually, that was the last post on that thread...nobody replied...

So, come on mates, give me your good reasons/scenarios that you need the SS...

Oh, and with all due respect to computers, I still don't trust a computer to save my fingers...the last pilot that trusted his computer, found himself (with all the passengers) splashed all over the fields near Nagoya airport....

"Ladies and gentleman, this aircraft is fully automatic and nothing can go wrong....nothing can go wrong....nothing can go wrong....wrong...wrong...wrong....Peeeeee, game over"......

Regards
niki

Well said Niki. Look at all the pics and vids from The American workshops, and its very rare that the splitter is on the saw. The best thing that Sawstop (and the Powermatic) has included is the euro style riving knife. That alone will reduce the amount of binding and kickback.

Looking at some stats from the US Department of Labor and the OSHA National Emphasis Program on Amputations, these machines are the main cause of amputation -

• Benders, rollers and shapers
• Press brakes (all types)
• Casting machinery
• Conveyors – belt, chain, live roller, and auger screw conveyors
• Drills – stationary
• Extruding machinery
• Grinders, abraders
• Plastic injection molding machinery
• Milling machines
• Mixers, blenders
• Packing, wrapping, bundling machinery
• Presses (mechanical, hydraulic and pneumatic)
• Printing presses
• Sawing machinery (band, table, radial arm saws)
• Shears (all types)

Table saws rank 4th for amputations and 70% of those woodworking amputations are the tips of the fingers. That is still bad and needs adressing, but as Niki pointed out they are mainly human error. It would also be good to compare (not industrial) Ausie stats v US stats because we use riving knives and they dont use anything. The 5 close calls i have had in 15 years had one thing in common, they were all late at night when i was fatigued.

And the review from FWW.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworki...t.aspx?id=5773


by Roland Johnson
6/1/2006

SUMMARY REVIEW

The author looked at 13 popular 3-hp, 220v 10-in. cabinet saws. In addition to evaluating the saws for power and safety, he also tested for tabletop flatness, for runout at the arbor shaft and arbor flange, and for parallelism of the blade to the miter slot. He found that all the saws offered plenty of power, solid rip fences, smooth controls, and flat tabletops. The SawStop, ($5500AUS) however, had extra appeal. It's the only one with a brake that stops when it touches skin. It also has an easy-to-change riving knife and a good blade guard. Its large paddle switch is easy to operate but slow to reset if the motor stalls. The blade cartridge must be switched for dado blades. An extension table and legs are optional, but this model came with the largest tabletop. But the Powermatic PM2000 ($3300AUS) goes even further. It has an easy-to-change riving knife and a good blade guard. The shut-off switch is especially easy to reach with the knee, and the tabletop is the second largest in the test group. Furthermore, it's the only saw that includes retractable casters (although lowering them required a lot of effort, a problem that is being corrected on newer models). An extension table and legs are included. The Powermatic PM2000 tied with the SawStop for author's choice of best overall.

All very well, but I'd still give m'right arm for a saw-stop!

Originally Posted by LGS

All very well, but I'd still give m'right arm for a saw-stop!

Ahhh. But in that case, you wouldn't have to.

Originally Posted by niki

So, come on mates, give me your good reasons/scenarios that you need the SS...

1. You are responsible for someone else (ie employee or student) using your saw and cannot watch over their shoulder every time they use it.

2. You are fatigued but are stubborn and continue to work. Don't laugh. I know of a bloke that has done it five times in the past fifteen years.

You're right though - you shouldn't HAVE to use the brake system. But it is there if you become slack or complacent. I would seriously hope, though, that this technology does not lead to people becoming complacent.

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

2. You are fatigued but are stubborn and continue to work. Don't laugh. I know of a bloke that has done it five times in the past fifteen years.
.

And if i had the Sawstop i could work even longer hours (then probbably chop my arm off on the radial arm saw )

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

1. You are responsible for someone else (ie employee or student) using your saw and cannot watch over their shoulder every time they use it.

2. You are fatigued but are stubborn and continue to work. Don't laugh. I know of a bloke that has done it five times in the past fifteen years.

You're right though - you shouldn't HAVE to use the brake system. But it is there if you become slack or complacent. I would seriously hope, though, that this technology does not lead to people becoming complacent.

3. The operator is disturbed by something unexpected happening - someone skylarking in the shop, someone tapping them on the shoulder when they are using the saw. They shouldn't but they do...

Originally Posted by jmk89

3. The operator is disturbed by something unexpected happening - someone skylarking in the shop, someone tapping them on the shoulder when they are using the saw. They shouldn't but they do...

How true, but you are talking about commercial workshops. They all use panell saws not 10" cabinet saws.