SawStop Comes To Australia!

**Ruddigar** · 18th December 2007, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Lignum

How true, but you are talking about commercial workshops.

Where does he say that??

I know of many folks that have been startled in their own shed by a visitor. Granted - none of them suffered an injury.....but it can happen.

How about this one from the SawStop website;

“I was installing new shelves for a closet and needed to trim about an inch from each shelf end. I was on the last shelf when I noticed that my girlfriend, Gina, had come out into the garage. I finished that trim pass on the last shelf and pressed the kill switch to cut power. The blade began to slow as I was lifting the shelf off the saw
table when I caught a glimpse of Gina coming up to the table to assist me by removing the shelf scrap from the table.

As her hand reached for the scrap piece, I drew a quick breath to tell her to STOP. It was too late.

All we heard was a "tink" and she reeled back - stunned. I couldn't believe it!

I didn't know how severe the damage was but knew it was going to be bad. We rushed her to the hospital where we were fortunate to find one of the best orthopedic surgeons in the state of Illinois. It took about 3 hours of surgery to repair the damage.”

Dave J., Illinois

Just another example of something that can be outside the operators control.

He goes on to itemise the costs etc associated with the surgery, but that probably isn't relevant in the land of Oz.

**niki** · 18th December 2007, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

1. You are responsible for someone else (ie employee or student) using your saw and cannot watch over their shoulder every time they use it.

2. You are fatigued but are stubborn and continue to work. Don't laugh. I know of a bloke that has done it five times in the past fifteen years.

I'm sorry but those are not reasons/scenarios...I talking about the person that is working on the machine.

If your employee is making stupid things, well, he knows what it will cost him and I don't thing that he can blame the owner for not providing him SS. I think that the owner shall have to compensate him only if he did not provide him with all the safety equipment according to the regulation or the owner told him to work on a machine that he was not trained on.

Same like an Airline...they don't pay compensation to a pilot that made mistake and crashed because he was trained and he is paid to do his work correctly.

I think that a student must not be left alone to work on table saw and it's the responsibility of his instructor to train him and watch him working.

About being fatigue and stubborn...well, if one is the kind of "money money money" even God will not help him...as Lignum said "and then probably chop my arm off on the radial arm saw"...

As Lignum said before, the Americans are not paying too much attention to safety, you can see it on pictures, WW forums, videos and TV shows...of course Norn is telling us to read the instruction and to wear the safety glasses just to remove any responsibility from what he is going to show...kind of "Don't try it at home" and of course the "Guard removed for clarity" (clarity of what) but the guys that are watching are getting "Educated" on the real way that they have to work and are just copying the "TV Star"...so yes, they need the SS and if they don't have 5500 they'll pay with body parts...very sad...

But, come on Ruddigar, you are in the business...how many makers are concerned about the "costumer safety"...I think that they are more concerned about the "costumer money" and if not some "stupid safety regulations" we would get even "badder" (superlative of bad

) machines otherwise I don't see the reason that we get crappy fences, splitters, guard and why we don't get hold-down rollers and feather rollers and sleds to cut thin strips etc...the magic word is money...make the production as cheaper as you can and sell with maximum profit.

If you will go to WoodNet forum there is a post about the SS. The SS owner and Grizly owner are asking/replying to each other...it's all about money.

Many, many American companies are producing in Chiwan - money...they would not sell if the product is "Made in USA"...SS made in USA would cost double...

Regards
niki

**jmk89** · 18th December 2007, 11:25 AM

Lignum

While it is true that these possibly happen more often in commercial shops, it can also happen in a domestic setting - eg something that happened at my place last weekend: my son came down to the garage unannounced while I was concentrating on cutting a joint (with a chisel) and climbed into the car. The first thing I knew, the stereo in the car had been turned on and I had the Wiggles on in my ear! I jumped! I just missed my hand when the chisel jumped too. I might not hear that with the saw running (certainly wouldn't if I was using the Triton), but when I am concentrating hard, something unexpected can startle me.

Brendan's stats from the manufacturer were interesting - I suspect that they are collected at the time that an owner of a Sawstop machine orders a new cartridge following an incident. That suggests:

they are happy with the product (because they want a new cartridge)
there are quite a lot of these saws in a commercial setting in the US (because most of the incidents were in a commercial setting).

I agree that the price is steep, and I would prefer it if it were less. But while I am pretty sure that I can ensure that I won't injure myself, I can not form the same view for everyone else. It's the same reason why I support secondary safety equipment in cars - primary safety (eg good handling and braking) and my driving skills will ensure that I don't cause an accident and may allow me to avoid someone else's accident-waiting-to-happen, but they don't ensure that I won't be involved in someone else's accident.

What I would love is a way of retro fititng Sawstop to tools we already have. But I can see that that is unlikely to be possible (esp if the forces involved in an acivatiion of the system require extra engineering of the machine). But something like that on a jointer or a router table would be very useful (those being two of the most dangerous tools in terms of accidents that actually happen - source FIL - officer in charge of major NSW State Govt workshop for 15 years).

I think it is good that Sawstop is not mandatory - we can all make our own assessments of what we value and what we are prepared to pay for it. I certainly am not going to say that anyone who decides to buy another kind of TS is being foolish. They just take a different view on the risks that they see as real or fanciful and on what they are prepared to pay to reduce those risks. And if I were in your position and needing to use a panel saw, then I would perhaps be taking the view "what's all the fuss about I can't buy one that I can use"?

But what do you think your position will be when Brendan convinces them to put out a panel saw with Sawstop (assume that it is as good as the panel saw that you would buy otherwise but has Sawstop for $2200 extra)?

**Lignum** · 18th December 2007, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by jmk89

But what do you think your position will be when Brendan convinces them to put out a panel saw with Sawstop (assume that it is as good as the panel saw that you would buy otherwise but has Sawstop for $2200 extra)?

Well i know Brendan weilds some power

but i doubt he would convince them. But it would be sensational if they did bring one out, and i bet a great % of cabinet shops here would trade for one. But not for a little 10" cabinetsaw.

And how viable is the Australian market? After all, 2 other importers of machinery passed up on the opportunity to bring the Sawstop into the country because their market research suggested it wouldnt be a strong market. Nothing wrong with having pick 3 in the draft though

**Jim Carroll** · 18th December 2007, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Lignum

How true, but you are talking about commercial workshops. They all use panell saws not 10" cabinet saws.

Not necessarily.

This happens a lot in home workshops just as much.

There you are working merrily away and you do not notice mum coming in with a cuppa or your mate from next door coming in to loan something.

The first thing you ask once you settle down is how long have you been there.

You get into your own little world and all your own thoughts.

**jmk89** · 18th December 2007, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Lignum

Well i know Brendan weilds some power

but i doubt he would convince them. But it would be sensational if they did bring one out, and i bet a great % of cabinet shops here would trade for one. But not for a little 10" cabinetsaw.

And how viable is the Australian market? After all, 2 other importers of machinery passed up on the opportunity to bring the Sawstop into the country because their market research suggested it wouldnt be a strong market. Nothing wrong with having pick 3 in the draft though

I must admit that it seems somewhat counter-intuitive for a safety device to be marketted first to the schools/hobbyist end of the market in a 10" saw rather than to the professional end. But the fact that 70% of the "finger saves" were from "professionals" suggests that they have bought the product. Perhaps it just has to do with brand loyalty issues at different levels of the market...

Brendan - there's a challenge for your salesmanship!!

But remember Lignum that 7 publishers passed up Harry Potter before Bloomsbury agreed to publish it. Perhaps Brendan just has a better feel for the market or more drive or a better marketing plan or all of those, and can see a way to make a good profit as distributor that the first 2 could not!

**Lignum** · 18th December 2007, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Carroll

Not necessarily.

This happens a lot in home workshops just as much.

There you are working merrily away and you do not notice mum coming in with a cuppa or your mate from next door coming in to loan something.

The first thing you ask once you settle down is how long have you been there.

You get into your own little world and all your own thoughts.

But i am going on Sawstops own statistics that Brendon provided. So it dosnt hapen as much in the home workshop.

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

documented "Finger Saves" from a SawStop machine were roughly grouped as follows;
70% - Manufacturing Industry (professionals)
20% - Education
10% - Hobbyists

This was over a two year period.

So realistically, there were only (

) 27 hobbyists that didn't lose their fingers as a result of having purchased a SawStop.

**Lignum** · 18th December 2007, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by jmk89

I must admit that it seems somewhat counter-intuitive for a safety device to be marketted first to the schools/hobbyist end of the market in a 10" saw rather than to the professional end. But the fact that 70% of the "finger saves" were from "professionals" suggests that they have bought the product.

As i have said before, i havnt yet seen a profesional cabinet shop that employs people who use a 10" Cabinetsaw, and $5500 is very expensive for a hobbiest, and i am very familiar with school trades departments and i know it would also be to expensive for the majority of them. Im not againsed a saw with this fantastic saftey feature, but its only my opinion, but i just think $5500 for a 10" cabinet saw is way over the top

**jmk89** · 19th December 2007, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Lignum

I wouldnt buy a saw that didnt have the balls to even cut though a savaloy.

My thoughts. Sawstop = Expensive gimmick.

Originally Posted by Lignum

Im not againsed a saw with this fantastic saftey feature, but its only my opinion, but i just think $5500 for a 10" cabinet saw is way over the top

I am glad that the result of this discussion is that the Sawstop facility has moved from "expensive gimmick" to "fantastic safety feature".

For you the decision is easy - you don't want a 10' cabinet saw and there isn't a panel saw with Sawstop. But a 10" cabinet saw is exactly what I want. I have to decide whether $2200 is the right price for the Sawstop feature. For the moment that's easy for me, I have too much mortgage to buy either a $5500 saw or a $3300 saw (or a $1100 saw). But the time will come that the decision will be real, so long as Brendan is still distributing and the market hasn't collapsed

**Lignum** · 19th December 2007, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by jmk89

I am glad that the result of this discussion is that the Sawstop facility has moved from "expensive gimmick" to "fantastic safety feature".

I think you will find i have never been againsed the saftey aspect of the Sawstop
.
On one hand you have the Powermatic PM2000 for $3300 and the other hand the Sawstop for $5500. Both saws have been rated equal in reviews and general discussion on the forums. The $2200 difference buys you a saftey brake for the spinning blade.

gim·mick - noun

1- an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal

Sounds like the Sawstop to me. If your in the market for a 10" cabinetsaw and you dont mind paying that money, fine, even $3300 is alot for a 10" saw, but for me $2200 is a fair whack for a saftey device, even one as good as the sawstop

**jmk89** · 20th December 2007, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lignum

gim·mick - noun

1- an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal

I don't know what dictionary you are referring to (although I note that this is definition 1. which means that there are others likely to be listed), but the Concise Oxford only has this one -

gimmick

• noun a trick or device intended to attract attention rather than fulfil a useful purpose.
— DERIVATIVES gimmickry noun gimmicky adjective. — ORIGIN originally in sense <Q>piece of magicians’ apparatus</Q>: of unknown origin.

I think most people would see "gimmick" as being a word of criticism, implying a lack of useful purpose or a trick, as in the Oxford definition, which would be emphasised by describing it as "expensive".

Aside from that, I think we are now agreed that the feature is a good thing in itself, but it is very expensive and that for you it is fitted tot he wrong machine.

**jefferson** · 29th January 2008, 01:59 PM

Back on line after an absence.

The SawStop discussion has been interesting. The price does seem excessive, no question. But it does beg the following questions:

1. When are you most at risk using a table or panel saw?

2. When is a table saw more user friendly than a panel saw?

In answer to Q1, my most dangerous moments have all been when ripping solid timber, not panels. Ripping, not cross-cutting, esp thin rips for edge banding with hardwood. Hands close to the blade, guards incorrectly not used due to clumsiness / poor design etc.

And I do a lot of that kind of cut.

For rips over say 3", I use the bandsaw instead for such heavy cuts and clean up with the thicknesser.

So I am thinking that $2K may well be worth a couple of fingers. Maybe. A riving knife on the likes of the PM 2000 will help, no doubt, and reduce the risks. But I'd sure like to see the SawStop before parting with any cash. (I have seen the PM 2000 and it does seem small in terms of table size.)

The one thing I do like is that Gabbett are the importers. The service they've given me with my Minimax CU300 has been outstanding.

Q2 stems from the inference that "pro" shops won't part with the money for a tiny 10" table saw. Well that may be true for kitchen cabinet makers who, without any disrespect, do most of their work with melamine and most of whom won't have done a mortise and tenon joint for years. In fact, I bet most kitchen cabinet makers workshops don't even have a mortiser or a bandsaw. If they own a jointer or a thicknesser, you can almost bet they are umpteen dozen years old and get used very infrequently.

Furniture makers are a different breed and all will usually own a table saw of some description. Table saws and solid timber work go together. From my experience with my Minimax CU 300, my little Jet 10" TS is the better option for ripping thin hardwood strips, even though the Jet has no riving knife. (The different in height between the sliding table and the cast table make it very difficult on the Minimax, esp with narrow pieces. And I am loath to remove the fence on the sliding table, which remains set at a perfect 90 degrees for cross cutting. So rip length is another issue.)

I do all my cross cutting on the panel saw however, with some docking for rough size done on a drop saw. The ease of the stops on the panel saw is fantastic.

But I didn't buy the Jet TS for ripping, it was originally meant to be a dedicated machine with a dado set installed. And it's under-weight.

So I am like many others in the market for a full size table saw. I see that Jet now have a 12" model complete with riving knife. A good option, probably better than the PM 2000. Not sure if the Jet is available here yet though.

Sorry to ramble on for so long....

Any and all feedback welcome.

Does anyone have an idea about the wait time for a SawStop?

Jeff

**Ruddigar** · 29th January 2008, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by jefferson

Does anyone have an idea about the wait time for a SawStop?

Yep. I do!

The first container of machines were ordered last week. They will be here late March / early April. Twenty machines in total.

Once we get a better handle on how well these machines will sell, there shouldn't be any wait for a machine, as they will be stocked nationwide.

**niki** · 29th January 2008, 03:32 PM

Hi Jeff

First, if you like it and can afford it, buy it...as I read on many posts on the net, the SS seems to be a very good table saw even without the SawStop feature.

But (always this but

) I don't understand why your fingers are close to the blade. I was cutting many strips for furniture (2mm~6mm) and for garden arbors (10mm) and never had my fingers close to the blade....actually, I don't have any operation on the table saw that requires the fingers to be close to the blade...

Regards
niki

**AlexS** · 29th January 2008, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by niki

But (always this but

) I don't understand why your fingers are close to the blade. I was cutting many strips for furniture (2mm~6mm) and for garden arbors (10mm) and never had my fingers close to the blade....actually, I don't have any operation on the table saw that requires the fingers to be close to the blade...

I agree, Niki, I have a 'Red Zone' around my blade. Still, enough people do home surgery to make this a worthwhile invention.

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