Thread: Advice on what to buy please

Originally Posted by TimberNut

I was considering getting a Tormek but am getting the impression I'd end up with a hollow grind, and would be better off using Japanese water stones.

Videos on the Lie Nielsen website show them using some sort of adhesive backed sandpaper (in various grades) stuck to a piece of granite, for initial flattening, then Japanese water stones for fine grinding.
They also use some diamond plate over the waterstones to re-flatten them.
They suggest wiping their chisels with Camelia Oil before storing in a leather tool roll. They also use a honing guide to keep the chisels at a constant angle. This looks like a brilliant idea to me.

Given the cost of these chisels (they ain't cheap!), I'm keen to ensure I'm able to keep them nice and sharp, and look after them properly.

My questions:
1. Do I need to locate some of this adhesive backed sandpaper, and some granite offcut? what other options are there for inital grinding? (I'm assuming starting with an 8000 stone would take centuries).
2. should I buy Japanese waterstones?
3. Are any Japanese waterstones better than the others. How do I know what's what?
4. what grits are realistic (I can find so many grits all the way to 8000). Getting every grit just isn't practical (and no one would use every one, every time anyway, so that'd be just wasting money).
5. I've read some just need a light spray with water before use, rather than having to store in water constantly. This sounds far more practical to me. Are these stones any good, or are they a compromise?
6. Is it a smart idea to buy a diamond plate thingy to re-flatten the stone after each use? Is that just over-the-top? If so, how else do people keep their stones flat?


All suggestions welcome.

TN

HI TN,

Just use a standard grinder, running at full speed - spend money on a wheel dresser and keep the wheel dressed.

There's nothing at all wrong with a hollow grind.

The LN chisels will be lapped flat.

I use Shaptons, but can use Wet and Dry glued to a piece of MDF, Oilstones, Waterstones or whatever else is available. You'll need to go to 8000# on the Japanese Waterstones, which is about 2000# wet'n'dry. It's not hard to get a razor sharp edge on an oilstone, which is about (?) 800# or so.

It should take you no more than 30 seconds per chisel to give them an initial sharpen.

If you have trouble setting a consistent angle freehand, the honing guide should help.

CHeers,

eddie

I have shaptons ordered from the US supplier. Great buy.
The need for a honing guide is debating. I would say they are a must. There was a review in the last AWR. The LeeValley Mk 2 is very well regarded.

Hi TN,

I can highly recommend the Veritas MKII honing guide. My thinnest chisel is only a 1/4" stanley but I don't have any trouble holding it in the guide and I'm pretty sure I could hone a 1/8" wide one in there too. It gets a review in this month's "Australian(!) Woodsmith"

Brace yourself for a whole swathe of expert opinions regarding hand honing versus honing guides though! This guide gives me rapid and consistant results every time I use it, why would I even consider honing by hand?

As for stones etc, research "Scary Sharp". It is a method of sharpening using various grades of wet and dry and it does work. You can fit several different grades on a flat surface so you're not reaching for and changeing different stones. I got hold of some polished marble slabs from a local stonecutter for free, these are great for holding the wet and dry. Self adhesive papers are harder to find, but simple contact spray takes care of that. This method gives me the finest edge on plane blades.

Have you considered diamond plates? For my general day to day chisel sharpening I just sharpen on a 350 grit then hone a micro-bevel (only on the Veritas!) on a 1000 grit. Finally I give it a few strokes on a strip of leather charged with Brasso. A razor sharp edge in under a minute from start to finish.

Timbernut, I have the Lie Nielsen bench chisels and have no problems with the Veritas MkII honing guide as long as I set it up properly but I can not fit my mortise chisels (RayIles) in the Veritas and had to buy a Kell guide, so I am not sure if the Lie Nielsen mortise chisels will fit the Veritas guide.
I use the Norton waterstones 1000, 4000, 8000 grit and this works well for flattening the back and honing the bevel. I have not had to grind the bevel yet.
There is so much written on sharpening it spins my mind, I have selected a philosophy (David Charlesworth's) and stuck with it. I know I'm getting nice sharp edges on my chisels - this was confirmed for me when I did a sharpening course.
I think the emphasis on camellia oil is because it is not a petrochemical, I use it , it works, I also use WD40 this works too.
I flatten my stones with 240 grit wet and dry on a granite plate from Carbatec, this produces flat surfaces according to my straight edge.
Hope this is helpful,
Ross

Oh Boy!

TN, the first thing you must do after you unwrap the LN chisels is re-wrap them and store them away for a year. Then go to Bunnings and buy a few Stanley yellow handle chisels. These should be the only chisels you use and grind and sharpen for the next 12 months. Seriously.

Learning to grind and sharpen is easy ... once you have learned how easy it is to make mistakes and then how to correct them .. and this means that you need to pay your dues to screwing up. We all did. I just do not want you to learn and screw up on those lovely LNs. Please put them away for now.

There are many methods of sharpening. Of all, using sandpaper (ala LN videos) is probably the safest and easiest .. which is why they use it. I would practice and stick to that for now. Master it before you move on.

You will eventually discover that grinding on a diamond stone or sandpaper is for the birds. Too slow. Then you will want to use a grinder. Starting afresh, if you can afford it, get a Tormek. Yes it is slower than a high speed (or half speed) dry grinder, but it is capable of doing so much more. For example, you can grind to the edge of a blade on a Tormek. You cannot get even close on a dry grinder. This means less steel to hone, and this meand quicker and easier honing.

You will love hollow grinding when you learn to freehand sharpen your blades...

And the new ceramic waterstones are just wonderful ...

But all this is in the future, at least two years away. For now, remind yourself to be patient, and earn your lumps. Its worth it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Keep the replies coming guys!

I'm pretty sold on the idea of a honing guide. I'm sure some will argue it isn't needed, but I think until I get proficient at it, a guide that ensures a consistent angle, is a good idea for me.

As for the stones - I've still got no idea!

the DMT DuoSharp 10" Coarse / Extra Coarse is listed at $159 at Carbatec. DMT® DuoSharp™ Whetstones & Accessories : CARBA-TEC
I assume that this is what you've been referring to keep the stones flat. I can probably source it cheaper overseas (I hope).

Re Shaptons - I found these - HMS Enterprises, Inc : High Resistance (HR)

is this what you're all talking about? They have a HC (High Carbon) and a HR (High Resistance) range. The HC range only lists 4000,6000,8000 stones. So I'm guessing everyones references to Shaptons are to these, in the HR range stones??

Originally Posted by TimberNut

Keep the replies coming guys!

I'm pretty sold on the idea of a honing guide. I'm sure some will argue it isn't needed, but I think until I get proficient at it, a guide that ensures a consistent angle, is a good idea for me.

As for the stones - I've still got no idea!

the DMT DuoSharp 10" Coarse / Extra Coarse is listed at $159 at Carbatec. DMT® DuoSharp™ Whetstones & Accessories : CARBA-TEC
I assume that this is what you've been referring to keep the stones flat. I can probably source it cheaper overseas (I hope).

Re Shaptons - I found these - HMS Enterprises, Inc : High Resistance (HR)

is this what you're all talking about? They have a HC (High Carbon) and a HR (High Resistance) range. The HC range only lists 4000,6000,8000 stones. So I'm guessing everyones references to Shaptons are to these, in the HR range stones??

Timbernut,

I'd look at Lie Nielsen Australia. They supply Shaptons. (yes, you've got it right.)

If you want pointers on sharpening and will be at the Timber and Working With Wood Show in mid-June, pm me. I'll be running one of the live displays.

CHeers,

eddie

Skip the glass stones, look at the professional series IF you MUST have Shaptons.

Trust me. I'm not a huge fan of Shapton at the best of times, although I admit the professional do work well (but a little 'meh' to actually use). The Glass Stones, please don't unless you try them first and find them to your liking.

I'm not saying don't get them, but please don't buy them blindly.

I'm not going to give recommendations as to what I'd use on those nice, new chisels. I could, but this is starting to look like a Shapton Fest, and I don't want to be the party pooper.


Stu.

Stu, all comments welcome. I don't HAVE to have Shaptons. I am after all the info I can get BEFORE I spend any money. If you have an alternative suggestion, please, let's hear it.

eddie - yes I plan on being at the Working With Wood show in June (I go every year). It'd be good to catch up. Hopefully by then I'll have a sharpening solution but you can certainly show me how NOT to use them (ie help me un-learn all the bad habits I'll pick up between now and then ).

Derek, I had originally planned on buy a Tormek but then I started reading the sharpening threads, and it seems that anyone who is serious about a sharp edge, seems to head down the Japanese Waterstone path.

If a Tormek will give me just as good a finish, I'll happily go that way. But how rough a grit is the wheel? Should I consider a Tormek for general sharpening then just do a micro bevel with say an #8000 Japanese Waterstone ?

Up till now I've been using an oilstone to sharpen my existing chisels and do that freehand, but whilst they get pretty sharp, I know I can do better. I figure if I sort a sharpening solution before I use these LN chisels in anger then I can set up the sharpening station and ensure I know what angles to regrind to when they need sharpening.

So, is a Tormek (plus a fine whetstone ??) a good idea? Better or worse than the whetstone path? Will a hollow grind be a good or bad move on such beautiful chisels?

Ross, where did you source Camelia Oil? Is it worth getting to keep these babies 'as new' ??
TN

TN

The Tormek is a grinder, not a sharpener. It will create a hollow grind, and then you have still have to hone the primary bevel which is created.

Listen to the advice that Stu gives about Shaptons. I have the Pro Shaptons, and they work well, but Stu is knowledgable about a wide range of waterstones, most of which were not available when I looked at Shaptons.

Note that you do not need to hollow grind for the primary bevel if you use a honing guide. Hollow grinds are ideal for freehanding, and honing guides work with secondary bevels. You could also use a belt sander for a flat grind, which is ideal for secondary bevels. If you have a belt sander, there is a jig I designed (on my website) that will be right up your alley.

Let me repeat, practice grinding (especially) and sharpening on cheap chisels first.

Regards from Perth

Derek

TN, I got camellia oil from Carbatec then scored a large bottle from Woolworths. I use either this or WD40 and have no rust problems whatever is closest, enjoy those chisels, Ross

Originally Posted by derekcohen

TN

The Tormek is a grinder, not a sharpener. It will create a hollow grind, and then you have still have to hone the primary bevel which is created.

Listen to the advice that Stu gives about Shaptons. I have the Pro Shaptons, and they work well, but Stu is knowledgable about a wide range of waterstones, most of which were not available when I looked at Shaptons.

Note that you do not need to hollow grind for the primary bevel if you use a honing guide. Hollow grinds are ideal for freehanding, and honing guides work with secondary bevels. You could also use a belt sander for a flat grind, which is ideal for secondary bevels. If you have a belt sander, there is a jig I designed (on my website) that will be right up your alley.

Let me repeat, practice grinding (especially) and sharpening on cheap chisels first.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I'd second Derek's comments. Learn on an old set of chisels.

THere's no practical difference between a flat primary grind and a hollow primary grind. Yes, there's a tiny bit less metal, but it's purely academic.

Note that I grind on a full speed bench grinder, not a Tormek, and with a bit of practice, you can easily grind up to the edge, quickly. Once again, at the TAWWWS, I'll show you how.

Cheers,

eddie

Hello,
Interesting and valid advice from everyone.
I tried a variety of systems, paper, stones, grinders and learnt from each, but I now use a T7 and wish I had gone there from the start.
It would have been more economical.
Tormek's jigs are a great feature, highly versatile, repeatable and don't require much of a learning curve. I think it would be hard to damage a chisel or iron and I have found it to be reasonably quick.
Importantly for me it is easy to use when arthritis limits what my hands can do.
Enjoy your new chisels .
Regards, Bill.

Originally Posted by TimberNut

Keep the replies coming guys!

I'm pretty sold on the idea of a honing guide. I'm sure some will argue it isn't needed, but I think until I get proficient at it, a guide that ensures a consistent angle, is a good idea for me.

I bought a Veritas MK2, and absolutely love the thing. The repeatabilty of the guide is fantastic, and I can touch up chisels at will. Apologies to the purists, but I just don't want to spend the time to learn to sharpen freehand. I have other things I can do with that time.