Thread: basic setup, what do i need?

Ok interesting thanks for the feedback

I'm thinking this would be a good set to help my hnt and Stanley blades

Set of Japanese Water Stones | Japanese Tools Australia

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I am a complete novice but I use the unicorn method and get it sharp with virtually no effort, skill and time.

Prior to that I was using the veritas sharpening jig with cerax stones from JTA, then switched the cast iron plates with diamond paste. It was a lot more effort to get the same result.

The late Leonard Lee wrote: The Complete Guide to Sharpening (ISBN 976-1-56158-125-2.)
You will find 2 pages of scanning electron microscope pictures which show that there is, in fact, little benefit
in working beyond 1,500 grit (3 micron) before honing with some 1-2 micron compound.
Steels are just too plastic without the molecular constriction of flint or obsidian.

So, I put my water stones and diamond plates away.
I use 3M silicon carbide sand papers with satisfactory results.
My goal is "carving sharp" to work in very soft wood without crushing anything.
I finish with CrOx/AlOx on a hard card strop, leather is too soft to be at all useful.

We'll see that's what I'm trying to find out. I already have a granite flat stone for years with sandpaper has been working ok but I just read and see so many other woodworkers with Waterstones of some form and the razor sharp edges they can get due to the higher grit.

I've just been picking up my sheets of sandpaper from the big green shed as they have up to 1500 wet and dry but it can tear, need to get the stronger type. Will check out the sandpaper man

I'm finding these kits of different brands of water stones but when you pick up 3 or 4 the coast quickly adds up compared to specific sheets of sandpaper on a stone. So many parts for sharpening that can cost a lot. Hmmm

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Originally Posted by Robson Valley

The late Leonard Lee wrote: The Complete Guide to Sharpening (ISBN 976-1-56158-125-2.)
You will find 2 pages of scanning electron microscope pictures which show that there is, in fact, little benefit
in working beyond 1,500 grit (3 micron) before honing with some 1-2 micron compound.
Steels are just too plastic without the molecular constriction of flint or obsidian.

So, I put my water stones and diamond plates away.
I use 3M silicon carbide sand papers with satisfactory results.
My goal is "carving sharp" to work in very soft wood without crushing anything.
I finish with CrOx/AlOx on a hard card strop, leather is too soft to be at all useful.

Thanks for this will check out the 3m range of sandpaper

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Originally Posted by delbs

I'm finding these kits of different brands of water stones but when you pick up 3 or 4 the coast quickly adds up compared to specific sheets of sandpaper on a stone. So many parts for sharpening that can cost a lot. Hmmm

I'm not a fan of buying sets of whatever, especially where the buy in cost is high.

If you want to try waterstones I suggest you buy or borrow just one stone and see how you get along with it.

My suggestion is that you start with about a 5 micron stone (ie, 2.5k to 3k Jp grit size) and use that after 1,000 abrasive paper on your existing granite block. You shouldn't need to go back to 1,000 grit very often.

After the 3k stone strop the wire edge off with something like chromium oxide on a firm strop (like Robson Valley uses).

You may find you don't need any of the more expensive finer grit stones above a 3k stone.

You will need something to keep your stone flat. Something like a 600 - 800 grit wet and dry paper on you granite block would work ok to get you going. I prefer to flatten my stones while wet.

I expect there is someone in or around Canberra who has an idle stone of about that grit size they could lend you for a bit to try out... anyone????

If you were closer I would have been happy to let you have one of mine to try.

PS - many western sharpening gurus don't finish off on very fine grit stones, but strop off the wire edge and re-strop several times before going back to a stone or grinder.

PPS - IME, a diamond plate is more useful (for many purposes) than having waterstones below #1,000 grit.

Also have a look at the massive amount of research and experience on Derek's website as he developed and refined his own sharpening practices.
Woodwork Techniques

My experience is that you are chasing a moving target. As your technique improves then you raise your targets. A sharper tool simply is easier to use!

You need to be able to grind steel and then focus honing on the bit that actually cuts.

To get started (i don't use guides, but it's helpful to get angles nailed down early), PSA roll sandpaper to grind, and then at a slightly steeper angle hone the tip of the tool.

If you use a medium stone (equivalent to 3k or 4k grit waterstone, etc), then you'll need to strop. If you use a very fine abrasive (i'd prefer aluminum oxide polishing pastes to expensive stones, or loose close graded abrasive - same), then no great need to strop.

PSA roll at 80 grit would be my choice for grinding -it can be stuck to a relatively flat piece of wood, or you can put it on glass or something else. The less honing you do and the more focused at the tip of the tool, the better you'll do (because you'll actually end up working the tip of the tool with the fine stone). Large changes in dimension or angles done at the grinding level and maintenance of final angle, squareness, reference to something important (like the sole on a tool that uses a skew iron) done with the medium and fine stones, not the grinder.

Fortunately, you'll never need a tormek, and they're actually slower than something like a honing guide and 80 grit psa paper - the virtue of them is that they do work, but they appear wonderful only if used infrequently and never compared to other methods for time or flexibility.

I found that seeing is believing. The scanning electron microscope pictures are very revealing.
All steel is too soft and too plastic at the thin edge to expect "really sharp."
Lee Valley Veritas "green" honing compound is a mix of CrOx (0.5 micron) with AlOx (0.25 micron).
This takes the place of any other abrasives on papers.

Actually, the compound from KMS Tools here seems to be a harder wax carrier and a much greater % of compound.
But since I abandoned my leather strop, I don't really care any more.

Imagine trying to slice an over-ripe tomato with a dull knife.
I require "carving sharp" to work in woods as soft as western red cedar and yellow cedar.
Too soft even to use a cabinet scraper on surfaces.
It's a step up from shaving sharp which I would never need to do with my crooked knives.

Anyway, after studying the SEM pictures, I decided it would be no loss to change what all I do.
1500 on paper then hone with green. Do the damn experiment and evaluate the results.
Here I am. It worked just fine and dandy. All my crooked knives and gouges.

Of course a key fact is knowing the bevel angle and reproducing that, every time after time.

The Veritas green (formax) is actually a lot more coarse than that. 0.5 micron is supposedly the average particle size, but the large particles do far more work than they would and the large ones dominate.

But it makes it more practical as a final hone substitute (the large alumina particles are capable of the work whereas 0.5 graded particles (chrome ox) and 0.25 micron al-ox are both slow and wouldn't follow a 1500 grit hone well).

i don't have an SEM, but I do have a metallurgical scope. When you get to about a micron uniformly graded, most visible scratches are gone.

0.5 chrome ox picture attached on a razor edge (far more demanding than tools as the apex is only about 16 degrees and it's easy for the tip of the edge to show scratches as it's fragile)

0.5 micron chrome ox-4.jpg

I don't have a good picture of the formax at an edge, just on a wide surface (chisel back) After using on corian.
https://i.imgur.com/l1ZPXX7.jpg

(this is stored on my imgur account, can't find the original picture).

Interestingly, closely graded 1 micron diamond on wood (only 10 bucks for a bunch of it - 25 bucks for a decades worth)

https://i.imgur.com/x6Z0gbz.jpg

I've got oxides down to .09 micron (iron oxide), 1/10th micron diamond and 0.3 micron linde A aluminum oxide (a full pound of it - it's fluffy and a pound is probably 2/3rds of a gallon volume). All three of those are too slow to be practical for woodworking, but would be OK on a loaded strop that isn't expected to really refine an edge much).

(the chase for ultra fine is usually tainted by peoples' inability to get the actual edge fully refined with the ultra fine. When I did my plane iron testing, I did find a fair bit more edge life with 1 micron diamonds than any typical sharpening stone aside maybe from a shapton 30k. I would never waste the money on a shapton 30k, but $10 for diamonds to be used on a metal substrate is nothing.

What I found was that 1 micron diamond lasts about 20% longer in feet planed than the 8000 grit class of waterstones or good quality oilstones, but my comment still stands - most people don't successfully finish an edge with ultra fine abrasives - it takes a significant bias to be working only the tip of a tool either by hand or with a guide, and removing back wear with 1 micron diamonds to a complete level under a microscope is fairly slow)

I generally sharpen using a washita despite all of the above - I can use do a better job with a washita than most people will do with a shapton cream.

I know most people won't believe that, so here's the edge picture of a washita finish:
https://i.imgur.com/pRyqHc4.jpg

And the shapton cream (the glasstones are a little more closely graded, but the cream is faster - an 8k king looks similar to this).
https://i.imgur.com/cGOlRds.jpg

I'd encourage the beginner reading this thread to get a stone that's fast enough to complete the job first and then work finer later. I've never received an iron from anyone that looked like these pictures under the scope - there's always damage or deep scratching still left in the edge.

just for giggles - 0.5micron chrome ox on corian to compare to the formax microfine / LV green above.

https://i.imgur.com/MbZ5trE.jpg

You can see just how much work the large stray particles in the LV stuff will do - they are completely absent on the visible spectrum with 0.5 micron graded chrome ox. This is the back of a chisel.

So, what's the answer? What's the recommended set up for a beginner that won't break the bank?

I've got just what I need using a variety of 3M fine automotive, wet & dry finishing sand papers up to 1500 grit.
3M reports that silicon carbide has a nominal particle size of 3 microns.
Edge inspections under bright LED light indicate starting with 600 for a damaged edge (eg hitting a sand grain).
Starting with 800 for edges just worn down. Then 1,000. Then 1,200. Then 1,500.

After seeing the SEM pictures, I figured I had nothing to lose and everything to gain by stopping at 1,500 then hone.
Everything from spoke shaves to crooked knives and elbow adzes. It's all worked very well in very soft woods.

Just about every edge I use has a sweep to it. Crooked knives, they are. Flat abrasives are no help.
I'm using pieces of pipe and dowels as mandrels with the papers wrapped around them.
I use a tennis ball for the adzes.

I have Shapton waterstones - 1 - 2 - 5 & 8k - as well as W&D on plates of glass in a range of grits from 80 to 1200P.
(I was able the recycle the glass top of defunct bathroom weighing scales.)

For some reason or another, I seem to get a wire edge on either my chisels or plane blades much more easily using the W&D than on my stones.
As a result I gravitate to the glass plates, particularly when I just want to refresh the edge of a chisel: a few passes on 360, 600, 800 & 1200P followed by a strop. It is quick and seems to work.

What I find a bit frustrating is that I have no reference point to judge how really sharp my edge is and it would be nice to be able to use a really sharp chisel just to experience how it feel!

Cheers,
Yvan