Thread: Basic Sharpening - The Next Step

The best thing I've done to simplify sharpening is use Autosol on mdf to finish hone/poliish the edge.

At work I just use a course then fine India stone and Autosol and I'm good to go. It's really fast and sharp enough for most jobs.

A flat polished back and square straight edge are critical.

Best wishes

Steve

The Next Step


Still a Good Morning

Last night I had a couple of pints of Guiness with some friends, discussed the above, and got a little advice, well lots of advice, at one stage I thought some of it might get delivered with bar stools, but then a sort of concensus emerged. On reflection, it was remarkedly similar to that concensus that emerged five years ago.

The basic strategy was:

• use diamond plates for the heavy metal removal, and
• use Japanese water stones for the fine sharpening and honing.

Diamond Plate

Everyone agreed that EzeLap and DMT were the best brands (Commodore vs Falcon type argument as to which was best!), that Atomic was a good economy brand, and that virtually all the rest were disappointing or worse.

Next, one mate insisted that a honing guide was a waste as any idiot could easily learn to sharpen freehand; the rest concurred that a klutz like me should stick with the Veritas. Given this precondition it was mutually agreed that extended length was a major asset in the plate - it allowed longer strokes = more metal removal per stroke. Also that a wider plate was a little easier to use with wider plane blades.

General concensus that the best available diamond plate to meet the above requirements is the 10 inch DMT DuoSharp with course and extra course faces.

My suggestion was that as the back of a blade had to be seriously flattened only once, and the basic primary bevel established only once, for each tool meant that there would be insufficient work for a DuoSharp and that I could stick with the 60, 100 and 200 grit scary sharp for these tasks. The others insisted that nothing removes metal like diamonds and once I try a diamond plate then I will change my mind.

The DuoSharp was also perfect for flattening whetstones.


Japanese Water Stones

Broad ranging discussion on the merits of many different water stones from the "too soft" to the "too hard". Sort of a concensus emerged that for my level of competence and frugality then probably would need:

• sharpening stone, 800 - 1200 grit, say 1000 grit, plus
• honing stone, 6000 - 10000 grit, say 8000 grit,
• standard length stones of 200mm preferable to shorter (150mm) as I would use a honing guide,
• most suitable products were probably Shapton Pro and Suhiro Cerax,
• Both could be flattened with the Diamond stone,
• Allegedly the Shapton was slightly more agressive at removing metal,
• Allegedly the Cerax honing stone gave a slightly better mirror finish (sharper??) than the Shapton,
• Therefore, Shapton Pro 1000 plus a Suhiro Cerax 8000 (my conclusion),
• Most concurred; one friend very strongly insisted that one should not mix brands of water stones. Mr Guiness and I could not follow his logic, but I do respect his views on most matters.
• His view was either Shapton 1000 + 8000 or Cerax 1000 + 8000.
• Others said he was being a pedantic b.....

My Questions

From the advice I got from this Forum five years ago, my own research, and my friends concensus advice, it seems my best strategy is :

• Heavy metal removal - DMT DuoSharp C/EC with 10 x 4 inch plate size (possibly deferred),
• Sharpening and honing - Shapton Pro 1000 and Suhiro Cerax 8000 (buy now).

What do you think of this strategy, have I overlooked something, are there better or more cost effective alternatives, is it really undesirable to mix water stones? I do not want to go to machine sharpening.

Thank you in anticipation.




Fair Winds

Graeme

Originally Posted by stuffy

The best thing I've done to simplify sharpening is use Autosol on mdf to finish hone/poliish the edge.

Steve

Thanks Steve

Not mentioned above is that I usually do a final polishing/honing with Veritas Honing Compound on leather. Seems to work OK.

I do not know Autosol and had a quick look at their website - I presume that you use one of their metal polishes? - Do you think that this would be much different from the Veritas?



Fair Winds

Graeme

The Veritas honing paste would be a finer polish, so use that, but Autosol metal polish is fast, relatvely cheap and available at most auto shops.

I like the hard surface of mdf better than leather, there's less chance of rounding over the edge.

Lots of good learning you've summarised Graeme. Not least that Guinness is a good lubricant

Another option for flattening and polishing backs is Norton 3X PSA sheets stuck to float glass. Available from Jim Davey. They cut faster and last longer than W&D. For the finer end of that process (ie. polishing) 3M micro-finishing abrasive sheets are best. Available from TheSandpaperMan.

One of the big variables is how many 'shaggy dog' tools you have to rehab. IMO diamond plates are not cost-effective for doing a lot of this.

My journey was similar to yours. Quality Japanese ceramic whetstones are an essential part of my kit now. Excellent advice on what to buy can be got from Schtoo on this forum or at Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan. His knowledge and service are outstanding.

Thanks for closing the loop about the advice you've got here. Look forward to the next 5 year report

Edit: Schtoo user name corrected.

Why not use diamond paste such as 8000 and 14000 like I do. I use diamond stones up tp 6000 and then finish off with diamond paste on a steel plate. You only use a little paste each time so a small tube lasts a long time.

SB

If you have a hard, very flat surface like a granite countertop cutoff/sink cut out, there is a 5-cent solution:
Chromium Oxide honing compound has a nominal particle size of 0.5 micrometer (aka micron). Usually formulated in some sort of very hard waxy carrier.
Scrub a lot of streaks of that on a piece of thin card (cereal box, filing folder, etc) which is taped to the stone surface. You're done. When it's all black with the finely divided metal particles, toss it out and make another.
I've considered much more sophisticated materials for sharpening my wood carving tools but I don't need any of that to keep my tools "carving sharp."

Go up into the woodcarving & sculpture forum. Look well back for a thread called "Star's Sharpening Journey."
Much of it is my illustrated description of what I do.

SB, I've had one go at diamond paste and the syringes must've been waved over someone's diamond plate for all the abrasive power it had.

Lesson: don't buy the stuff off ebay. I've got $90 worth of useless paste. Buy from Lee Valley or other reputable dealer.

I use the very finest, junk, cracker-box cardboard that Nabisco Foods can provide.
To fold around 18mm tubes for my crooked knives,
I have had to resort to 55 x 40 simple & cheap filing cards.
Don't get sold a box of hooey = you NEED this, you NEED that.
Read what I show and told in "Star's Sharpening Journey".
Different tools these days, some slightly different styles.
Mostly more of the same.

Look. Winters here are long and cold and snowy.
I have had ample opportunity to do all kinds of sharpening experiments.
After all, it's just chunks of steel. I can fix anything so I try anything.

Does anyone know where the autosol would fit on the scale compared to standard stropping compounds? I bought some years ago to try out and I forgot about it until it got rehashed in this thread.

Regardless of the actual diamond content I have no trouble sharpening with ebay diamond paste on lee valley honing plates. It was hit and miss on mdf/hardwood for me.

Definitely a step up from scary sharp.

Yes, SS is a place to start but most move on fairly quickly. IME SiC sheets wear rapidly when doing lapping of backs.

Whatever base you use, clearly for lapping and polishing it has to be very flat. You may not notice probs with a quarter inch wide back but you will with a foreplane or jointer blade. If you buy polished stone offcuts, check them first with a quality straight edge.

...

That aside, I've been reading Lie-Nielsen's book on sharpening. It's well written with lots of pics. Much of what he says resonates with my experience.

But just for interest here's some stuff in it that didn't or was new to me with regard to whetstones ...

Waterstones can be flattened rubbing one against another.

If you get sticking on a waterstone try filing some lines across the surface. (Shaptons have posed this prob for me; not Sigma PSs).

A fine waterstone benefits from raising a slurry with a Nagura stone. Again I've not found the need for this with the Sigmas but with the #6000 will give it a go. With hard steel I've found it slow to generate its own slurry.

Ceramic waterstones (alumina fused) must be flattened with diamond plates. I do this but don't have a coarse enough one for the Shapton #120. That gets flattened with #36 or #90 SiC grains on float glass, and that works fine but the glass does dish in time. And that raises a question about variation in ceramic waterstones. I know that binders vary and know that there's much more I don't know about these units.

He speaks favourably about Norton waterstones but lots of user forum posters disagree.

Apart from that the chapter on turning tools makes sense. I would raise the question of how necessary slow grinders are for those using HSS steel. If you learn to spindle turn at speed you'll have acquired the touch necessary to sharpen at speed.

Originally Posted by stuffy

I like the hard surface of mdf better than leather, there's less chance of rounding over the edge.

Thank you, Stuffy.

I had noticed corners were not crisp; this is part of the reason for me wanting to move on from SS. I thought that the micro-movement/flexing of the sandpaper with SS was causing the corner rounding. The leather could also be exacerbating it.

Superbunny and Robson are advocating steel or granite plates, which are even harder/stiffer than MDF> Point there.


Fair Winds

Graeme

SB and Robson

Thanks guys. When you advocate diamond paste or CrO am I right in assuming that this is for "maintenance sharpening" and final honing; not for serious metal removal in flattening recalcitrant backs or establishing/changing primary bevels??



Fair Winds

Graeme