Thread: CBN, Tormek or both

Derek I can enthusiastically concur on the leather wheel.

I bought a Tormek 4 a few months ago. I am quite frustrated already with it. I knew it was reputed to be slow, but not THAT slow.

I have already bought a CBN wheel to fit the Tormek T4 as I an obstinate type and always try and make something work. It failed to work because it is too heavy. I am now just waiting for time to get the grinder setup done. But I think I will keep the Tormek as an option. Something I particularly like is that the jigs are held on the machine so it is actually a very compact unit in terms of bench space.

I think it is worthwhile adding that the Tormek is also very useful for very small jobs where a jig is impractical and your hands will inevitably be very close to the wheel.

An example is a nicker for a Stanley 78. It doesn't need any particular profile, just to be sharp and cut. They are smaller than the size of your thumbnail. But you can literally leave your thumbnail on the wheel to guide it as it does not need much. I also use vice-grips but even then your nice vice-grips will be very close to the wheel.

I have also committed sacrilege and in a lazy moment the other day when I was trying to remove what was left of old nickel plating and rust from a cap iron. It was just the thing for rolling the curved part over the wheel (ie, up and down, not left and right), hands near to the wheel for control, with just enough action to get the plating off and smooth over. Yes, I could have done it on sandpaper or used a wire wheel but it was less work and easier, and advantage of the wet wheel is removing all the dust and crap and all you have to do is tip the water out.

So somewhat ironically - given the marketing - I just find it's an odds-and-sods and cleaning up and rust removal utility item.

This may naturally change if I get into turning work.

Originally Posted by Cgcc

. . . . . I think it is worthwhile adding that the Tormek is also very useful for very small jobs where a jig is impractical and your hands will inevitably be very close to the wheel. . . . . .

Some the small MW lathe tool tips I touch up on CBN wheels result in my hands being very close to the CBN wheels. Because of this I tested out how long I could lightly keep a finger on a new CBN wheel starting at slow (~300 rpm) speed and found I could leave it there for many seconds. Because the wheel is metal it actually feels cool at first and warms up depending on how hard you push. Then I worked my way up to higher speeds and even at 2850 rpm I found I could still lightly touch the wheel for at least 5s without feeling any discomfort or skin loss, probably because skin is too soft. On my used wheel I can leave my finger on there at 2850 rpm for more than 10s with no problems.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

If you are looking at it from the perspective of plane blades and bench chisels, the powered strop on the Tormek is useless (in my experience) .... I gave up on its inefficiency many years ago.

I do all my plane blade and chisel sharpening exclusively on the Tormek as I would with the turning tools. Generally I don't use the leather honing wheel. I find that the edge to be more than sharp enough after polishing it with the 4000g Japanese water wheel.

We will have to agree to disagree, J1T. I use waterstones and freehand on them to 13000 grit. Different strokes and all that thing

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi justonething,

A genuine question though.

Doesn't the cost and setup time start riding up, for using another Tormek wheel? That is what always made me write off that setup.

A new Tormek T8 seems to go for about $1200. Then you are in for $550+ for a waterstone.

Then because the waterstone wears, you have to be very precise with the gauge, and it takes time to adjust your jig, or do things like put marker on the edge to check it is coming off. I find this to be the most fiddly and time consuming part of the exercise for a hone.

I also assume the waterstone is only after a refresh on the stone wheel, because otherwise you will either spend forever to grind the entire bevel on the waterstone and unduly wear it.

For that cost it seems you could have a slow-speed grinder ($300), allow $200 for a BGM-100 and jig, CBN wheel (say $250), utility of spare spindle for a buffing wheel on other side, and you've got a budget that will very easily allow for top-drawer diamond plates and ceramic or waterstones to fine up (or honing plates with paste etc). The plates will also let you do a number of things you can't do with a wheel like honing flat bevels or wonky shaped items like router plane blades (which have a sharp right-angle) or power router bits (on the diamond plates).

I could perfectly understand if you were often doing large planer blades or refreshing kitchen knifes on the regular where the setup time is relatively less than time on the stone (and frankly a kitchen knife doesn't need to be anywhere near as sharp as most woodworking blades), but for say grabbing a 1/2" chisel that has dulled and get it back to screaming sharp, being able to just hit the stones and strops, you're in and out and back to the work in a minute. Whereas you'd still be adjusting the jig on the stone wheel first on a Tormek setup wouldn't you?

(I don't want to start one of 'those' sharpening threads but genuinely curious.)

Hi Cgcc,

i can't speak for Justonething, as from what it sounds like money isn't an issue with his dual Tormek setup. For me cost is a strong deciding factor, but there are other factors. Such as i have RSI in both hands, and using my Veritas honing jig on flat waterstones sometimes does cause my hands to flair up. For now i'm putting up with it, but in my mind i know as as i age it'll probably get worse. When it does i'll either need to get surgery, give up the hobby i love or invest in a system that works for me. Once i reach that hurdle i'll have no hesitation to get the tormek.

So like alot of things the old saying of "your mileage may vary" comes in.

After reading all the valuable input maybe the ideal setup for a wood turner is a CBN wheel for the initial grind and then the Tormek with a 4000 grit stone on it ???

Of course there is a cost associated with that setup.

So let me get this right. You have several reasons that make you disinclined to consider a Tormek setup that I'm using, and these are:

1. the cost difference;
2. How many stones will you need?
3. time and effort involved in setting things up in comparison to honing by hand;
4. You can do it just as well in sharpening by hand;

Am I about right?
Cost:
Well, Tormek is, of course, more expensive and it is a judgement call on how much utility you can get from it vs the money you spend. Buy quality and cry once that sort of thing. I sharpen all kinds of things - knives, secateurs, scissors, turning tools, axes, chisels and plane irons. It also allows me to do precision re-honing of many cap irons. These are the utilities I experience myself. As to the cost, I don't think everybody needs to have an extra Tormek. I could get by with just buying a Japanese water wheel. I noticed that there is a Tormek with every jig that you need for sale. It will be a less expensive way to kit up.
How many stones?

Originally Posted by Cgcc

I also assume the Waterstone is only after a refresh on the stone wheel, because otherwise you will either spend forever to grind the entire bevel on the waterstone and unduly wear it.

I reckon you will only need three grades of stones in total. 220g on the half-speed, 1000g stone and a 4000 g stone. Now if you can get hold of a 200 mm 1000g CBN stone and fit it to the half-speed, then a Tormek with a 4000g Japanese Waterstone will be sufficient. I have a philosophy on sharpening that on anything finer than 4000g would make no difference to the final outcome, especially after the edge have met the wood. Many knife sharpeners recommend sharpening beyond sharpening knife beyond 4000~6000 g only if it is used for cutting vegetable. Meat protein will bend the edge sharpened at above 6000 g. Wood should considerably be harder than meat protein I'd think. Also, physics tell us that 13000 g is less than 1 micron, which is the size of a single cell, or a few hundred molecules of iron. Can steel really hold an edge that thin and for how long against wood?
How fiddly is the setting up?

Originally Posted by Cgcc

because the waterstone wears, you have to be very precise with the gauge, and it takes time to adjust your jig, or do things like put marker on the edge to check it is coming off. I find this to be the most fiddly and time consuming part of the exercise for a hone.

Let's be precise. The jig is the part of the setup that holds the tool, for example, the square edge jig, that rides on the universal support bar either on Tormek or BGM-100. Having defining that, I'd say the most time-consuming part is fitting the tool in the jig accurately. With that done, all that remains is adjusting the height or distance of the universal bar from the base. If you are using bench grinder mounting kit BGM-100 for your half-speed grinder, you will need to fit the tool in the jig anyway, so that becomes sunk time. All that remains is to adjust the distance of the universal support bar on the Tormek. Using the angle master, you can easily set up roughly the angle, and if you are always sharpening at a particular angle, the height of the bar is almost right anyway. With a sharpie, you can easily match the bevel by manually rotating the wheel and check where marking has been rubbed off. It takes me less than a minute to do that. The beauty of CBN wheels is that the diameter doesn't change. And since the SJ-250 remove so little material, the diameter of that wheel hardly varies either. Even if it goes down slightly, it just becomes a micro secondary bevel. Honestly, I haven't timed myself, but I feel it's less than a minute generally to have it all ready to go.
If you hone by hand, some will do it freehand, and some will use another jig like a Veritas sharpening jig. By the time you remove your tool from the Tormek jig and put on the Veritas, I'd have adjusted the distance of the universal support bar and will be already honing away.
How good is the result?

Originally Posted by Cgcc

but for say grabbing a 1/2" chisel that has dulled and get it back to screaming sharp, being able to just hit the stones and strops, you're in and out and back to the work in a minute. Whereas you'd still be adjusting the jig on the stone wheel first on a Tormek setup wouldn't you?

The sharpening action is about moving the tool against a stone while maintaining a fixed geometry. When you sharpen by hand, you move through a few grades of stone, say 600, 1200, 4000, and finally a few strops of those green compounds. On average, a jig is more accurate at holding to a fixed geometry than a human would, especially over the course of a few different plates/stones. Tormek is moving at 90 rpm, that is an equivalent surface speed of 70 meters per minute. I'm sure it is faster than a person pulling the tool over the stones while locking his upper body. On a Tormek, I finish at 4000 g, and that's it. It's short, even including the time it takes to adjust the distance of the universal support bar (<1 min). What more, the result is always consistent. When I plane, I get the feel of a crisp cut every time. When I use a turning chisel, the feel is the same. Consistent and reliable. I have people give me plane irons that have been sharpened to a 13000 g finish, but it doesn't have that same crisp feel when I use it.
That's it. Take it or leave it as you like it. If you are happy with the result of what you are doing, then keep doing it. I'm pleased with mine, even after spending all those coins.

Originally Posted by woodtryer

After reading all the valuable input maybe the ideal setup for a wood turner is a CBN wheel for the initial grind and then the Tormek with a 4000 grit stone on it ???

Of course there is a cost associated with that setup.

A 4000 g watersone with a Tormek would be very nice, but if cost is an issue, using the SG-2xx combination stone and the leather stropping wheel with honing compound would give you something workable for turning.

As ever, sharpening as a topic brings out more methods and preferences than there are sticks to throw.

With regard sharpening set ups, none are perfect for most others. Some are good guidelines for many. And only a few are perfect for me. This is likely to be the case for you as well. Do your research before making up your mind.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by woodtryer

I see a lot of woodturners sharpening their gouges and other turning tools on CBN wheels and pondered whether this or a Tormek gave the best edge.... Or does one use a CBN wheel to reshape or remove dings from the cutting edge and then go to the Tormek for a final sharpen?

Maybe that would be an overkill but I'm interested in peoples thoughts on one, the other or using both.

Thanks Peter

I think you have answered your own question,

With your first few lines,
Why do a lot of turners use CBN wheels,
Because they work!!!.

It’s a bit like most farmers these days use a tractor to plow there fields,because it’s quicker than using a donkey.
Sure you could use a donkey if you want too.

Cheers Matt.

Thanks JIT,

Only a couple of thoughts, though.

1/ Finer grits don't make the bevel thinner if the geometry is the same. A bevel at 25 degrees rough-sharpened to 120 grit has the same nominal edge thickness to a bevel sharpened on a shapton at 16000 grit. The difference is just the coarseness at the edge.

2/ A higher grit though makes the edge smoother. I think there is often a confusion that because the sharpness can "settle down" it means the edge is therefore more fragile. It is not - it is just the extreme smoothness can be lost making it feel more like a degradation.

I would agree that sharpening above 4000 grit has a limited application (for some including me they love it!) in the sense that you can get by without it. And depending on the intended finish, too high can actually cause a problem. But I disagree that is because edge is more fragile per se. A 10,000 grit edge will noticeably lose the 10,000 grit sharpness more quickly than an edge sharpened to 600 grit - but that doesn't mean it will go down to the quality of a 600 grit edge or that somehow a 600 grit edge (say) is more durable.

I think the psychological effect plays a role here. If you've got something screamingly sharp and it's luvverly, then when you lose that, it's quite noticeable because (for example) you can't just push delicately through end grain or glide through a knot. But for something that's only moderately sharp to begin with and which requires a fair bit of effort, there is not a feeling of losing that high-performance

I don't know whether we're at furious agreement but the point about relatively site of grits vs meat particles etc indicates we might not be.

3/ I agree that a jig that mechanically registers the bevel against the abrasive may be more consistently accurate *per stroke* or at all times during contact. But that does not matter if the edge is getting effectively abraded by the grit you are on. If I take 20 swipes on a bevel on a plate using the "Sellers" method for a chisel or plane iron (pushing the bevel away) it is acknowledged you are not always hitting the edge at all times during the stroke (as it moves away from you). And if my technique is developing I may miss it entirely with 10. But if 10 of those 20 strokes hit the edge and a burr has developed it has been just as effective. And if I've done it in less time, I'm still ahead.

But as you say, horses for courses.