Thread: Cheap water stone is that false advertising

Originally Posted by NeilS

I'm not convinced that arbitrarily calling any point along that progression as honing helps us understanding the sharpening process. However, vendors and gurus will continue to use such terms to appear authoritative, while confusing us.

Yes. There are so many terms which we use interchangeably across cultures (and domains) that it quickly becomes a pea soup, making it harder for beginners to make heads or tails of what is being described. Sorry if I added to the confusion.

'Honing' certainly seems to be a term that seems to get used quite widely and often arbitrarily. But the way I understand is it the following... Honing is done on something that is less hard than what you're honing.

A metal honing rod would be less hard than a kitchen knife - it pushes the steel on your edge into shape, rather than removing steel to create a new edge. The particles in a ceramic or diamond honing rod on the other hand are harder than your knife - they will remove metal, even if just a small amount, and create a new edge. So stropping on unloaded leather, cardboard etc. is honing the edge. But any synthetic whetstone you have, no matter how high the grit, will be sharpening to some extent.

That's my interpretation anyway!

(As an interesting aside, something I just thought of... Most knives, chisels, and stuff are going to be in the region of 55-65 HRC, which may roughly correlate to 5-6 on the Mohs scale. And is convenient to say the least, because quartz - the second (?) most abundant element in the earth's crust - is 7. Most traditional natural sharpening stones; slate, sandstone, arkansas &c. get their abrasion from forms of quartz. In a parallel universe where quartz was softer than iron/steel, we basically wouldn't really have been able to make something out of metal and then make it sharper, at least not to the extent that we could. The last few thousand years of human development would look very different indeed.)

To demonstrate... people often think of fine Arkansas as honing stones because they're so hard. But actually novaculite (metamorphosed quartz) does cut, if only a little bit. Here's swarf from a yanagiba on a translucent Ark, it's very definitely sharpening rather than honing:

IMG-1259.jpg

Originally Posted by LanceC

Sorry if I added to the confusion.

Far from it, Lance. You were just saying what we have all been hearing... for ever. My comments weren't directed at you. You just gave me a hook to hang my hat on...

Originally Posted by cotedupy1

A metal honing rod would be less hard than a kitchen knife...

Whereas, my understanding has been that the metal rod (the steel) needs to be harder than the knife/blade.

For example, Friedrich Dick, an acknowledged leader in the manufacture of steels for use with cutlery, advises...
The right sharpening steel absolutely must have a greater hardness than the knife being sharpened.


https://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/information-m/sharpening-steel-manual/sharpening-steel-knife-series/

Not that I have much experience or claim much knowledge on steeling blades myself. They belong more in the western blade tradition, while my experience nowadays is more with the much harder eastern blades, which would have their brittle edges destroyed if you were to take a steel to them. I'll write a separate post on that.

PS - An interesting observation on the importance of quartz in the progress of humankind over the last few millennium.

Originally Posted by LanceC

I jump from 1500 to 8,000 and the difference is very noticeable. But using your nomenclature, I would suggest that my sharpening at 8,000 is doing the same as your honing. I have always thought honing a non abrasive procedure. It is simply realigning the edge which has been bent out of shape. Once you introduce an abrasive and are removing metal, you're back to sharpening (and potentially honing at the same time).

Oops, sorry! I didn't read this properly last night before typing out basically exactly the same thing, but less succinctly. But yes - that's basically how I would use the term too.

I think the reason the term gets used in a broader way is probably down to perception, as well as the kind of edge you want. If you sharpened a chef's knife going from a 6k stone to a 15k Welsh slate or somesuch, the edge is going to feel incredibly smooth and refined. You'd lose the grippiness, and it'd probably be less useful in the kitchen, likely even feeling blunter when cutting a lot of things. But if you did the same thing with a chisel or razor, it'd feel sharper in use - you don't really want the edge of a razor to be like a microscopic saw. In this way I suppose, the slate kind've acts both in honing and sharpening, perhaps doing more of the former and less of the latter. Lots of factors affect it to do with distribution, shape, and release of abrasive particles in a stone, and you can play around with the effect by raising mud and using different pressures.

I haven't sharpened many chisels before tbh, but I did one for a friend the other day and saw this in action. After using a synthetic 3k stone it had an edge that would be great for a knife, but it wan't that great on a chisel. I then finished on a slate, probably pretty much exactly the same 'grit' level (3k), but the quartz in slate is quite rounded, and they don't slurry easily. The chisel felt much sharper afterwards - what I did was probably more honing than sharpening...

So having written all that, it actually strikes me that it's all really a kind've continuum. And people should probably just continue using the words however they want

Originally Posted by NeilS

Whereas, my understanding has been that the metal rod (the steel) needs to be harder than the knife/blade.

For example, Friedrich Dick, an acknowledged leader in the manufacture of steels for use with cutlery, advises...
The right sharpening steel absolutely must have a greater hardness than the knife being sharpened.


https://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/information-m/sharpening-steel-manual/sharpening-steel-knife-series/

Not that I have much experience or claim much knowledge on steeling blades myself. They belong more in the western blade tradition, while my experience nowadays is more with the much harder eastern blades, which would have their brittle edges destroyed if you were to take a steel to them. I'll write a separate post on that.

PS - An interesting observation on the importance of quartz in the progress of humankind over the last few millennium.

Ah I must've got mixed up about the honing steel thing, I always thought they were slightly softer, though like you I don't really have much experience (and clearly less knowledge!). It makes sense then why people don't recommend using them for harder Japanese steels, and to use a ceramic rod for them if you wanted to do that kind of thing. Though the only people I know who do work in kitchens, and just do it out of convenience during service.

I thought it was an interesting thought re- quartz too! The sheer abundance of it has meant that most societies anywhere in the world had access to stones that would make tools sharper. If we didn't have quartz then the Belgians, with their stash of coticules, would probably have conquered the world!

I was going to add a comment on the difference between the sharpening traditions in the East and West in my earlier post, but thought I had dumped enough there without that distraction...

However, I think there is a helpful point to be made in relation to that difference.

See the heading, Usage trends in the following Wiki article on honing steels

Honing steel - Wikipedia

The key points being, steeling may have had a role with softer western blades but never with harder eastern blades, and many modern western knives that now contain harder carbides also favour maintenance with abrasives. The proliferation of 'sharpening' steels made from ceramic and diamond are an indication of that trend. Where a knife is hitting something hard, like bone in butchery, there may still be a role for a softer knives and regular steeling, but those butchers sure spend a lot of time doing that... a bit phallic, eh!

But, for most of us the maintenance of our edges is best done with the finest abrasive we require for the edges we desire.

In which case I reckon the 'honing' term, despite its longtime traditional use in the West, has no real meaning, that is unless we are using it metaphorically, as in honing my sharpening skills...

Originally Posted by NeilS

Whereas, my understanding has been that the metal rod (the steel) needs to be harder than the knife/blade.

For example, Friedrich Dick, an acknowledged leader in the manufacture of steels for use with cutlery, advises...
The right sharpening steel absolutely must have a greater hardness than the knife being sharpened.


https://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/information-m/sharpening-steel-manual/sharpening-steel-knife-series/

Not that I have much experience or claim much knowledge on steeling blades myself. They belong more in the western blade tradition, while my experience nowadays is more with the much harder eastern blades, which would have their brittle edges destroyed if you were to take a steel to them. I'll write a separate post on that.

PS - An interesting observation on the importance of quartz in the progress of humankind over the last few millennium.

Neil

It appears the merry-go-round has sparked into life again.

Seeing as how you have mentioned the esteemed German producer of butcher's steels it has always amused me (digression coming up) that the slightly unfortunate association of F.Dick that appears on their products has a particular resonance in our language, but that is an aside.

P1070593 (Medium).JPG

Although the naming does get worse:

P1070594 (Medium).JPG

But aside from the unfortunate naming, the steel is a beauty and very smooth, which I think is one of the marks of a quality steel

Our day to day kitchen knives comprise a "set" (a mismatched set in reality) of five. Three are Damascus style, which with these versions is more aesthetics than function, I believe, and the other two are laminated blue steel being a larger Santoku and a traditional Nakiri.

P1070592 (Medium).JPG

I am reluctant to mention this as you have far more experience with this subject than me, particularly with JP knives. However, I use our butchers' steel on them all. I have inherited a family steeped in butchering and one of them I have had lengthy discussions with on the use of the steel. It is in this regard we are in agreement (not too many other regards )that typically you see steels being used incorrectly. We tend to see them used very quickly, being some sort of testimony to the skill of the person performing. This inevitably leads to the knife being "mashed" onto the steel. It is probably of less account with the knives used in the butchers shop. However, both of us stroke our knives very gently and quite slowly against the steel. The action is one of caressing far more than striking. Particularly with the blue steel knives, they are placed against the steel before being drawn. It helps that our steel is one of the longer versions too at 350mm.

I applaud cotedupy's entry to the discussions, but I am not sure that honing does not remove metal, unless honing is the wrong terminology for the use of the steel. The reason I say this, is that after a period of time the steel has a reduced effect or benefit. Steeling the knife over time creates a secondary bevel which develops into what I call a "shoulder." There comes a moment when this "shoulder" has to be removed in order for the knife to become satisfactorily sharp again. We also much more easily see this with our chisels and plane blades as they are larger and more exaggerated. To develop that "shoulder" we had to remove metal.

If honing does not remove metal, should we have another step between that and initial sharpening called, say, "refining?"

Over to you blokes.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Neil

It appears the merry-go-round has sparked into life again.

Seeing as how you have mentioned the esteemed German producer of butcher's steels it has always amused me (digression coming up) that the slightly unfortunate association of F.Dick that appears on their products has a particular resonance in our language, but that is an aside.

P1070593 (Medium).JPG

Although the naming does get worse:

P1070594 (Medium).JPG

But aside from the unfortunate naming, the steel is a beauty and very smooth, which I think is one of the marks of a quality steel

Our day to day kitchen knives comprise a "set" (a mismatched set in reality) of five. Three are Damascus style, which with these versions is more aesthetics than function, I believe, and the other two are laminated blue steel being a larger Santoku and a traditional Nakiri.

P1070592 (Medium).JPG

I am reluctant to mention this as you have far more experience with this subject than me, particularly with JP knives. However, I use our butchers' steel on them all. I have inherited a family steeped in butchering and one of them I have had lengthy discussions with on the use of the steel. It is in this regard we are in agreement (not too many other regards )that typically you see steels being used incorrectly. We tend to see them used very quickly, being some sort of testimony to the skill of the person performing. This inevitably leads to the knife being "mashed" onto the steel. It is probably of less account with the knives used in the butchers shop. However, both of us stroke our knives very gently and quite slowly against the steel. The action is one of caressing far more than striking. Particularly with the blue steel knives, they are placed against the steel before being drawn. It helps that our steel is one of the longer versions too at 350mm.

I applaud cotedupy's entry to the discussions, but I am not sure that honing does not remove metal, unless honing is the wrong terminology for the use of the steel. The reason I say this, is that after a period of time the steel has a reduced effect or benefit. Steeling the knife over time creates a secondary bevel which develops into what I call a "shoulder." There comes a moment when this "shoulder" has to be removed in order for the knife to become satisfactorily sharp again. We also much more easily see this with our chisels and plane blades as they are larger and more exaggerated. To develop that "shoulder" we had to remove metal.

If honing does not remove metal, should we have another step between that and initial sharpening called, say, "refining?"

Over to you blokes.

Regards
Paul

Yep... thinking about the term properly - I think I probably use it in a way that's different to a lot of people, probably because I'm far more used to Japanese knives than western knives. I'd tend to consider honing as pretty much like stropping. But you're right - you certainly see older Sabatiers and the like that have been 'over-steeled' on a honing rod, and had the belly completely taken out of them, so it certainly is removing material. There's obviously some kind of element of a spectrum, and choosing where you draw the line. Not of course that nomenclature really matters in the grand scheme of things, as NeilS said - it probably doesn't really have a meaning.

And it all goes to show that anything I say (on any topic tbh) should be taken with a large fistful of salt!

I have enjoyed your contributions, Bushmiller and Cotedupy.

Paul - if you are steeling Blue steel Jp blades, which are likely to be at least at mid-60s (HRC) hardness, then I do not think that you are bending the edge to 'straighten' it. At that HRC the metal is going to be far too brittle to be bend about like that. If your Dick steels are refreshing the edge on your Blue steel knives as you describe then that can only mean that they are achieving that with a fine abrasive action.

I have long believed that the 'straightening' explanation of how steels work is overstated, even for softer blade steels. Like you, I think they primarily work as a fine abrasive to 'refine' and refresh the edge. The fact that you find that repeated steeling changes the geometry of your knives confirms that.

Your steeling technique using light pressure also indicates that you are letting the fine abrasive do the work and that it is not pressure that is achieving a fresh edge. I know from using burnishing rods to push metal around to form a burr (on softer metal) that considerable pressure is required. So, a very different process.

On the steeling technique of some practitioners, I remember the butchers in my childhood slapping their steel and knives together and with such a flourish that they rang out loudly for all to hear... something of a performance, if nothing else!

Cotedupy - I'm forever challenging the language we use to describe what we think we understand and do. BTW, this is not directed in anyway at you, more at us collectively, me included. This goes back to when I was managing what is taught in TAFE courses. We would get the experts to write down what apprentices should learn and do. These experts were expert practitioners in their fields, but they often struggled to describe clearly what they knew and did, and then get agreement on that from the others in their domain of expertise.

Apologies if it felt like I was giving you the red pen treatment!!!

If you have not done so already, I would be interested in hearing further about your experiences with sharpening on Willunga slate. I had a go at sharpening using Kanmantoo (east of Adelaide) slate but with disappointing results; it was too slow and not that fine.

I understand that that one of the mines (Wheal) near Mt Osmond produced sharpening stones in the early days of the colony here in South Australia, but I haven't been able to find which mine or how good that stone was for sharpening.

The following thesis on the geology of Mt Osmond might be a pointer. Perhaps it was one of the siltstone deposits.

Adelaide Research & Scholarship: Geology of the Mt. Osmond area, South Australia

Like Neil I always wondered about how using a steel worked. I have found that before a steel is used the turned over edge can be felt with a finger nail and after steeling the edge appears to have been straightened and the knife actually cuts but it maybe the rolled edge is removed by the steel rather than straightened. I was a bit of a sceptic on how much a steel will enhance the cutting performance but it does and quite markedly so.

Chris

I should point out that not all steels are created the same even within the revered brands. I will take some pix over the next couple of days to demonstrate this. The coarser steels do remove more metal and "tend" to be the cheaper versions. A colleague who spent a former life in the butchering trade said that as an apprentice he could only afford a cheap steel so he took to his and sanded down the metal to make it smoother.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

I have found that before a steel is used the turned over edge can be felt with a finger nail and after steeling the edge appears to have been straightened and the knife actually cuts but it maybe the rolled edge is removed by the steel rather than straightened.

OK, Chris, time to bring in a bigger gun than we currently have participating here in our forum to throw more light on whether steels 'straighten' rolled edge?

What Does Steeling Do? Part 1 – scienceofsharp

That certainly throws more light on the topic, that is if that is the right term for SE microscopy!

My summary of the findings reported in the article:

• "Steeling improves keenness through metal removal rather than 're-alignment of the edge'."
• "There is some evidence of softened metal being redistributed; however, a micro-bevel is unquestionably formed through metal removal."
• One "type of metal removal is generally termed abrasive wear and occurs when a hard, sharp abrasive cuts into a softer metal surface."
• Another "type of metal removal (or transfer) is generally termed adhesive wear. Adhesive wear occurs at pressure points [where] the contact area is very small."

I'm a fan of micro or nano-bevels; so steel, stone or strop away with your preferred method to get and maintain the edge quality you require for the cutting task at hand...


I came across a link to the above article when I was researching scrapers and burrs that woodturners use (see the following link for an article on that if you are interested in burr formation).

What Does Steeling Do? Part 2 : The Card Scraper – scienceofsharp