Thread: How long will a DMT duostone last?

Sazman - yeah, that was what I tried when I first got the stone, and it doesn't work.

Both the other stones I got from Stu at the same time (the Shapton M5s) can be used in this way, i.e. they don't need a soak first.

I tried this with the Sigma 1000 grit; a generous splash of water.........gone. A bit more.......sucked up completely, stone still virtually dry. It really is an amazingly porous stone, which is why it sucks up a LOT of water initially but does so fairly rapidly. Much quicker than a traditional waterstone (e.g. King, Norton, etc.).

The porosity also explains why it cuts so well......definitely the best stone of any kind that I've used. This is why the coarse Shaptons, which have very low porosity, also don't cut as well as the Sigma.

I think your requirements for fast cutting and no soaking may be mutually exclusive...... !!

Hi Sazman,

I'll nip this in the bud, right here, right now.

And Mr. Brush nailed it while I was off working today...

To have a properly fast cutting stone, that stays flat, 9 times out of 10, it needs a bath at least.

The only exception is the Shapton Pro, and for outright speed it's way down the list, for flatness, still not king of the heap. The Glass Stone is not in the same class as even the Pro in my opinion, which co-incidentally has a few thousand dollars of stones and dozens of hours of time with those stones to back it up.

If you try to use a stone that needs soaking whilst it's dry, it will clog almost instantly, and will not unclog until you have enough water in and on the stone.

I honestly can't work out the aversion to soaking a stone for a short time before using it. The idea that all soaking stones are messy is BS, water in the stone is another point of manipulation to get better performance, and it also helps the stone cut faster with less clogging. If the Shapton Pro #1000 needed a soak, it'd be a monster. As it is, it loses a LOT of speed by being hydrophobic and I think, even gives up a little bit of 'stay flat' as well. In short, it's less of a benefit and more of a sacrifice the more I come into contact with no-soak coarse and medium stones. On fine stones, less of a problem since they are so finely grained that even a soaking composition would have trouble taking in water.

But if you are heck bent on having a no-soak stone, then the Shapton Pro is it.


Just don't get upset when I show you a half dozen stones that need a soak but are cheaper, longer lasting and either match or exceed the performance of it in every measurable aspect, as well as being nicer to use.

Exception is the Sigma #1000 Soft. It will dish, but my dear gad is it sweet to use, immune to clogging and fast, fast, fast. I need to run the tests on it, but I'm hooked already. I'll live with the dishing, the 6K ceramic after it will correct it.

Thank you Brush and Stu for answering.

Ok, what about using a coarse(about 1000grit) oilstone
with water? I understand these don't need soaking and
stay flat for a long time at the expense of cutting slow.
Perhaps with water they will quit quickly.

Stu, I read what you say about stones needing water
for better performance. Makes sense, but my Naniwa SS800
that I have only needs a splash of water and is ready to use.
The stone is unfortunately too soft for my liking and bit too gritty.
So I wonder if they would make these SS harder, it would
be a great stone.

Though I have to admit I don't have any other 1000grit stones to
compare besides my diamond hone.

I just don't like soaking stones. If I can't find such a
stone(1000grit, hard, no soaking required, fast cutting,
stays reasonably flat) well then I have no choice, but
to make concessions.

Sazman

Hi Sazman,

Only one word for oilstones and HSS/A2 steel.

No.

Seriously, the stones that properly deal with HSS all need soaking, and oilstones won't cut it. And I mean that, they just won't work because they are not intended for dealing with HSS. A2 might even be a struggle. The abrasives just are not up to the job, and it would be a lesson in futility. Yes, some might actually work, but which ones and how long do you have to get the job done?

Just now, I'm tabulating the results for HSS with 14 different waterstones.

You want the results of that, speed only for the stones you mentioned before? You got it. Scale of 1-10 plus a reference for dish resistance, 1-10.

Chosera 1000 3 3 (workable, but not happy, moderately flat)

-Shapton GS 2 2 (not effective, but usable, noticeable dish)

-Naniwa SS 0 2 (ineffective)

-King 0 0 (ineffective)

-Sigma power, 3 4 (usable, stayed flat)

-Bester 9 4 (very effective, stayed flat)

-Shapton pro 3 4 (usable, stayed flat)


Stones you didn't mention...

The HSS specific stone from Sigma Power, and this is why it rates;

Sigma Select II 12 5 (devastatingly effective, too fast to dish)

Similar stone from Ootani, the Arashiyama #1000;

Arashiyama 11 3 (very effective, moderate dishing)

The Stainless steel specific #800 stone from King;

King Neo 11 2 (very effective, noticeable dishing)


Now, this was a pretty harsh test, doing a full bevel face at 30 degrees, but it does give you some idea of how these stones deal with HSS. A2 is different story, and I won't go into details right now.

If you are looking for a 'stone' that doesn't need soaking, then I'd suggest not looking for a stone at all, and instead start looking at diamond plates. No dishing, no soaking, a whole boatload of other issues.

But if you want a stone that will adequately deal with your HSS and A2 tools and doesn't need soaking, get a Shapton 1K. It's not my favourite stone, it's not the best at anything (actually, it's quite mediocre), but it will work. It's the only option you have since the condition of 'no soaking' is not changeable.

(I hope that's not because you believe a no-soak stone makes less mess.)

I'd really like to be completely wrong here, but I have a selections of HSS chisels, a few dozen photographs and some worn stones that tell me I'm pretty close to the mark.

Stu, thanks for the detailed information. Much appreciated.

From the info you just gave, it seems the Bester is the
way to go. Is it possible to keep the stone in water
all the time without ruining it?

I read conflicting info on the Chosera line. Some say it
needs about 10 minutes soaking while others say it
only needs to be kept wet, no soaking required.

I am a bit puzzled by your comment on the Shapton
GS. These stones should actually not dish much at all.
I think it was something like ''While the GS is thin, they
wear,dish very little and can be used for a very long time.

If the GS would dish quickly then the stone would last
for a short time.

Also the sigma select from the info I read, produces
a thick slurry and is as you write very fast. That would
make me think it dishes quickly. Maybe if one would
use the whole stone then this effect would be very little,
I mean easier to reflatten.

The arashiyama also looks promising. Could not find
it on your site.

Sazman

Hi Sazman,

I don't leave stones in water, but the Bester is one that reportedly can be left in water, but it may/will make the outer layer softer than it would normally be. This is not always a bad thing, and the Bester is so hard that it'll probably be better soft than standard.

I only left water on the Chosera, and it does like water in it rather just on it. I'm actually disappointed with the Chosera 1K, the reputation it has meant it should have been something really special, but it's no better than a Shapton Pro or Sigma in any way, except feel. It's also a pain to flatten, which really counts against it. Clogs at the drop of a hat as well, which probably helps it. It feels quite soft when clean and fresh. Not a fan.

The #1000 Glass Stone are good only if weight and size is important. That's it. They are not as good as the Professional, dish more and are more difficult to flatten. There's less material, and what's there just isn't good enough. If they were 2/3 the price, then it would be acceptable. If you want to believe the hype, then go right ahead. I'll still sell them, but I'll not recommend them. Just not good enough.

The Sigma Hard creates milk, the Sigma soft (same price, I list both) creates cream. The hard is a formidable stone being able to stand toe to toe with ANY stone commercially available, and put up a good, honest fight. It'll even win a lot of them. Of the 14 stones I've run through the wringer, it's in the top half easily. But create slurry it does not.

The Soft? Wouldn't be a fair fight at all. For one, it does dish to a noticeable level. Second, it's unbelievably fast. I need to run the standard tests on this stone, but it's going to be very, very fast. Very much like what the Chosera should be like, and for free hand sharpeners and knife folks, it's a dream.

The Arashiyama is difficult to find. I'll see what can be done after this week. It's a great stone, but needs a drink, can dish a little and is dark green. It's not ideal, but it's leaps and bounds better than it should be, since it's not an expensive stone and virtually unheard of.

Sorry, I don't buy hype any more, especially when the evidence says otherwise.

Stu, who's getting sick of stones...

Stu - I hope you've cleaned up the mess in your kitchen.........

Originally Posted by Schtoo

Hi Sazman,

I don't leave stones in water, but the Bester is one that reportedly can be left in water, but it may/will make the outer layer softer than it would normally be. This is not always a bad thing, and the Bester is so hard that it'll probably be better soft than standard.

I only left water on the Chosera, and it does like water in it rather just on it. I'm actually disappointed with the Chosera 1K, the reputation it has meant it should have been something really special, but it's no better than a Shapton Pro or Sigma in any way, except feel. It's also a pain to flatten, which really counts against it. Clogs at the drop of a hat as well, which probably helps it. It feels quite soft when clean and fresh. Not a fan.

The #1000 Glass Stone are good only if weight and size is important. That's it. They are not as good as the Professional, dish more and are more difficult to flatten. There's less material, and what's there just isn't good enough. If they were 2/3 the price, then it would be acceptable. If you want to believe the hype, then go right ahead. I'll still sell them, but I'll not recommend them. Just not good enough.

The Sigma Hard creates milk, the Sigma soft (same price, I list both) creates cream. The hard is a formidable stone being able to stand toe to toe with ANY stone commercially available, and put up a good, honest fight. It'll even win a lot of them. Of the 14 stones I've run through the wringer, it's in the top half easily. But create slurry it does not.

The Soft? Wouldn't be a fair fight at all. For one, it does dish to a noticeable level. Second, it's unbelievably fast. I need to run the standard tests on this stone, but it's going to be very, very fast. Very much like what the Chosera should be like, and for free hand sharpeners and knife folks, it's a dream.

The Arashiyama is difficult to find. I'll see what can be done after this week. It's a great stone, but needs a drink, can dish a little and is dark green. It's not ideal, but it's leaps and bounds better than it should be, since it's not an expensive stone and virtually unheard of.

Sorry, I don't buy hype any more, especially when the evidence says otherwise.

Stu, who's getting sick of stones...

Good info Stu.

I can understand getting sick of all those stones!LOL. Take
a break mate.

Just a question about bester stones. Why do they have a 1000
and a 1200 grit stone? This is so close? Do you feel there is
any real difference between the two or is the 1200 bester just
a more expensive, tiny bit finer version of the 1000 bester?

Sazman

Some great info here, but it's really highlighted that some of these stones have very specific uses. A few months ago I bought a DMT Diasharp Fine, a King Deluxe 1200 and a King Deluxe 4000 to hopefully cover me for everything from plane blades to hand sharpening knife blades. After that I found I need a flattening system of some sort, and am regretting that I went with cheaper options because it's looking like the Kings won't work well at all with the Thumbsucker plane blades. At the moment all 3 are unused, so at least I have the option of selling them.

If I'm starting from very little, is there a selection of stones that would cover me for sharpening everything from plane blades (both standard Stanley and Thumbsucker's), various (cheap at the moment) chisels and knife blades of various steel types and qualities? I don't want to duplicate stones because some work with some steels and other steels need a different stone, I just want a selection of stones that will do the job on pretty much anything. I'd also need to know how to store it and use it, ie store dry, soak before use, etc. I don't really care what they require, but need to know so I don't ruin them.

From the posts above I'm thinking of the Sigma power ceramic stones in various grades - a 120 for flattening and rapid stock removal, a 1000 for sharpening and an 8000 for polishing. Will that progression work well for any steel, or are the steps too big? Would the DMT fine work for flattening the 1000 & 8000 Sigmas, or would I be better off selling it and getting the Sigma 120?

Oh, and does anyone want an unused King 1200 or a 4000?

Hi Stu,

Onya mate. Sometimes there is so mch information on sharpening stones that my head aches trying to evaluate it all. Thanks for the brief write up and all the hard work on the stones of course.

I actually like reading about it and don't mind the time at the stones, just happy to have some information to help me use the better stone for the job.

Cheers
Pops

Check the DMT for flat, and if it is use it to flatten stone. If it isn't, get it replaced or get your money back. That's first. Sorry if that's a shock, but the dang things are so often out of flat that they need to be checked. That goes for anything you're going to be using to flatten a stone with, but still, the DMT plates "have a reputation".

I don't have any of Helmut's blades, but I'd think that the Kings are going to either struggle or be completely useless.

The HSS chisel I used here was exceptionally hard, but some CPM-M4 I've also used was not as hard and the King #1000 was able to work with it, albeit very slowly and I gave up after a while.

The #1000-#8000 in Sigma is a big jump, especially on HSS. I'd very much like to see something else in between, but Sigma only do a #6000 in ceramic.

I'm going to hold off here right now, I've got a lot to do with the blog updates as well as some plane stuff. I'm in a bit of a quandary here as well at the moment, since what I'm pretty much forced into doing is to air out someone else's skeleton closet. The testing has shown up something peculiar, and there's a pretty simple explanation for it, but this may be the very first time that the real, tangible effects are quantifiable and obvious. In short, someone's been playing the market selling oranges against apples and doing well with it, convincing everyone that the orange is a better apple.

But the test results show that they are not a better apple, they're still oranges and you just can't make a nice pie with oranges.

Stu.

Oooh - the plot thickens !

Or, for our NZ readers, the plut thuckens.......