Thread: DMT vs Waterstones/oilstones

Andreas,

Possibly. Unfortunately for what you've got planned, I don't think I could have chosen a less well suited combination of sharpening gear if I tried.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...

Go to fine tools and order a King Deluxe #300. If you can manage it, order a King Hyper hard (called regular I think) or a Shapton Professional #1000 as well.

Thank me later.

Stu.

I'm new to sharpening with water stones, but the reason I chose the stones that I did was price. I needed a 1000, 3000, and 8000 stone and i got that for about 40 euro total, I thought about getting better stones but my budget wouldn’t allow it. Perhaps I will buy some from you when the wife allows my next purchase.

I don’t use the water stones for flattening the underside of the chisel only setting and honing the bevel, for flattening the chisels i use the DMT diamond stone and different grit sandpaper. But that is rather slow, faster when I tried sandpaper though...

But what is wrong with the stones i bought the grit size is about right? Is it the brands that don’t mix well?

And what would you recommend if I where to buy a total sharpening set from you? I will be using them on two cherries chisels, some Japanese chisels, and A2 plane blades.

Hi Andreas,

Well, the DMT have a reputation for being something less than 'durable' when working with steel. They're not bad and certainly better than some of the cheap junk flying around, but I did experience the "where did my diamonds go?" effect on my Duo-sharp. For stone flattening, they're decent but not ideal.

(Before someone goes off half cocked about that, the problem is not the diamonds, but the plate's design. There's nowhere for the mud to go, so the DMT stuff sticks to the stone like it's welded in place.)

Let me explain about the problem.

The King #1000 isn't a bad stone in and of itself. It dishes very quickly if you're not careful to use as much of the stone as possible and for outright speed, it's not really that fast. Fast enough, but it's in the bottom of the range. But it's honest and yes, they're cheap. I've used one for years and wasn't displeased with it, but at the same time I knew it wouldn't stay flat so worked around that as much as I could.

The Superstone #3000 is, again, not a bad stone but you've gone from the King, which although it's no longer that fast/aggressive is light years ahead of the Naniwa. The Superstones are not at all 'fast' and really don't play well with other stones because of that. I think the #3000 you've got is in a reasonable spot, but honestly, you could have skipped it and not missed it at all.

The King #8000 is a good stone, and still is. Not as fast as some, but still does a good job and nothing to be sneezed at.

So the stones you have are not bad, but I really think the #3000 was superfluous to your needs, especially if you're doing microbevels on the A2.

To get stuff flat, find a piece of surface ground steel, some loose abrasive grit or paste and put some of the abrasive on the slightly wetted steel. Put the blade back on top and push down very hard to bed in the abrasive particles. Keep pushing down hard as you rub the blade around and check it occasionally. Do not add any more abrasive until it's either all broken down or becomes obvious the blade back is not flat and needs more work. If you can get some loose diamonds, all the better but you're trying to save money so whatever abrasive grit you can find will have to do.

But really, plane blades don't need to be 'flat', just a small area near the edge needs to be at least 'in plane'. If that also equals 'flat' compared to the rest of the blade, so be it. If it's just a small area, then that's ok too. Chisels, so long as they don't wobble on a hump you can manage with an out of flat back too, slowly working towards it over time. A slight hollow from handle to tip is ideal, but not terribly common any more.

Of anyone I know, I probably have the most serious weaponry to flatten blade backs, and I still don't bother with it OR I deal with it and creep up on it over several sharpenings. The blade's primary task is to cut things not 'be flat' so spend more time cutting stuff and make the blade do what it was made to do.

Trust me Andreas, I know all about not having enough money but at the same time, I never spent the money I didn't have on anything I wasn't 100% sure about. Which is why I never bought a King stone (when I was cash poor) and only bought my Superstones when I needed them for review and testing. I knew what they were like, and I know that while decent, I'd be frustrated with them. The King I actually used was inherited, and I've used it halfway and glad for the experience.

And no, I don't want or need to sell you anything. I would prefer to make sure that everyone can get done what they need to get done, regardless of budget. The only thing that money buys you is convenience and time, and for many, that's worth the extra cost.

And since I don't do hard sell on forums, I won't tell you what I'd use here.

Above all else, if you are using the DMT for flattening steel, be gentle. Also rub it occasionally on the #1000 to clean the DMT and flatten the stone, all at the same time.

Sandpaper is popular, but there's ample evidence that it doesn't actually work very well much of the time (rounds the edges, making it pointless) and it gets expensive. Certainly more so that a handful of the same abrasive that's in the paper.

Good luck with it,

Stu.

While I generally bow to Stu's knowledge on waterstones, I cannot support the purchase of a King 300.

This stone is extremely soft and will cause more problems than it solves (if it solves any!). It will dish rapidly, and so will the backs of your chisels.

Flattening the backs of Two Cherries is a necessity from what I have seen and heard if these are the polished variety. The polishing dubs (rounds) the sides.



You do not need to flatten the entire back, just the area about 1/2" back from the bevel. However this is likely to cause the back to come out-of-flat, so you may just need to work your way up the length of the back. You do not need a smoothed back, just a coplanar (flat) back if you plan to use the chisel against a reference/fence.

My recommendation is to use sandpaper on glass. For this the sandpaper MUST be glued down - otherwise it may bunch up and dub the sides. See if you can get Zirconion Oxide belt sander belts. Cut these open and glue down. 80 and 120 grit. Zirconion Oxide is extremely durable. Once you get to a flat 120 it will be easier to use other sandpapers. Before moving to your 1000 waterstone you will need to go as high as 600 grit in sandpaper.

LAPPING THE BACKS OF BLADES

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

While I generally bow to Stu's knowledge on waterstones, I cannot support the purchase of a King 300.

This stone is extremely soft and will cause more problems than it solves (if it solves any!). It will dish rapidly, and so will the backs of your chisels.


Derek

Derek, you're wrong. Sorry.

Woo hoo!!! I finally got to say that, and I can even stake my reputation on it.

The King #300 and #400L are the newest generation of King stones. No soaking, fast and I can't dish them. You haven't used it, so please don't make claims of it. The #300 is light years ahead of nearly anything else, and the #400 is another step further along. I don't know how they've done it kept them so danged cheap.

Trust me, this King is something else entirely.

Top two on this page from King's site. Japanese only, sorry.

And you should have some idea of what I have at my disposal here. When I say "this stone refuses to dish", I mean it.

Heck, I had a time flattening initially, and rubbing the Atoma over it now after hard use takes a single swipe. Dang thing will last forever at this rate.

I'll make a video. They're easy enough nowadays, and this stone deserves it. Just a monster. And yeah, it's amazing to get stuff flat with. Like a diamond plate that just won't clog or quit and you can lean on it real hard. Wouldn't be even a little bit surprised if it's faster than a diamond plate.

But I've not completely tested it yet, so I can't be sure. All I can be sure of is that the only coarse stone (under #1000) that comes close to matching it for dish resistance and speed is the Sigma #120.

Stu.

Thanks for all the help!

I had the same experience with my duo sharp, after a while it seems to stop working i will try the trick with the 1000 grit stone later today!

When I use sandpaper i wrap my duo sharp with the paper, I don’t seem to get rounded edges then, except from the front of the chisel, but I think that i rounded them when I tried sandpaper on glass (no glue). I will also try the sandpaper on glass with glue method (already have contact spray glue but don’t know if this will adhere to glass...) will find that out later I want to try your method too stu but I dont have any abrasive grit at hand, and I need to get it trough the internett since theres no shops that sells it in my town. If it’s not too expensive i will order some the next time.

I did however not get the polished version, dodged that bullet because of this forum

Thank you Stu for all the helpful insight, I only thought grit size and price when i bought. The next time I buy stones I will do some more research on them before purchasing!

Perhaps i will manage to get the chisels flat with the tools I already have because of you Derek!

OK Stu, you got me there. I was thinking of the 300 grit King stone I have. Clearly not the same thing. I must admit I was not sure if you had been drinking too much Asahi when you wrote it was hard. Mine wear a hollow if you look at it too long!

Nevertheless I would still stick to sandpaper for the early stage - unless the King 300 goes like blazes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Nevertheless I would still stick to sandpaper for the early stage - unless the King 300 goes like blazes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It'll chew up and spit out anything else I've ever seen. And I've seen pretty much everything. Amazing stone.

It's one of the few stones that you can throw loose grit on it, and it will still hold up just fine. Kinda like throwing petrol on a bonfire.

It's new, few folks know anything about it. I've got both of them, and they're good enough that I'm now paying very close attention to what King is doing, as well as considering pushing for the back-door key to their factory.

It is nice to see that even now, new stuff comes along and because of what's already out there, the new stuff is generally really good.

(Except Glass Stones. Blech.)

Stu.