Thread: Which edge lasts longer - 600# or 6000#?

So, perhaps it could be an idea to give different tools different edges as well as different edge angles?

So, a chisel used for paring could be at 25 degrees and to 6000# fineness, whereas a chisel used for mortising could be at 30 degrees and to 1000# fineness.

Just some thoughts, and I have a variety of stones (inc. 120#,1000# and 6000# Sigmas)) so I am happy to use finer stones where necessary.

Certainly good reasoning, RC. The right tool for the job may be a subtle as differences in edge refinement.

My knot-busting bench chisels are 40 degrees and I show no mercy with the mallet.
They get a lick and a promise with the oil stones and that's it.
Carving sharp, all the rest of my gouges are 20 degrees, all the knives are 12 degrees. Very happy.

My 2 bob's worth - if both the 600 and 6000 are cut to the same angle, the 6000 would leave a more even edge without microscopic dags to break off, or at least much smaller ones, so might wear a bit longer before needing a touch-up.

(I use 1200 and can't complain.)

Originally Posted by Ball Peen

I think the more pertinent question is who gets to keep his job ? The guy slaving away endlessly over his stones or the guy with a good working edge and getting his work done ? My Hard Black Arkansas is 1000- 1300. It has served me well for 35+ years.

I think I saw a grid comparison spreadsheet that put hard black around about at 6000 (japanese equivalent).
(I think it put a belgian coticule, etc at 8000. (which I originally had remembered as 12000))

Correction: Hard Black = Norton #4000 = japanese #2000

Cheers,
Paul

Here's one theory ... regarding #600 vs #6000

If you start off with a #6000 edge ... after a while it might be somehow equivalent to a fresh #600 edge ... and from that point onwards perhaps they might behave about the same. (?)

I'm not saying that a used #6000 edge really would be *identical* to a #600 edge ... but perhaps they might both last about the same amount of time from that point on.

Also ... found the comparison sheet ... https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...42553238,d.dGI

I note that the Extra-Fine India shows about #600 ... but we also have to know what grit we are talking about.
Norton "8000" shows as equivalent to a japanese "4000" for example.

Cheers,
Paul

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Here's one theory ... regarding #600 vs #6000

If you start off with a #6000 edge ... after a while it might be somehow equivalent to a fresh #600 edge ... and from that point onwards perhaps they might behave about the same. (?)

.......
Cheers,
Paul

Hi Paul

If your nice 6000 edge falls to 600 it is overdue for re-sharpening!

The fact is that a 6000 edge will NEVER deteriorate to the level of a 600 grit. A worn edge is rounded. A freshly honed 600 edge is pointy .... but it is very serrated and likely to fail (chip) quite quickly due to these serrations. It is also dull to start.

The point is, good work is done with a sharp edge. Blunt edges are dangerous and produce second-rate work. Yes, you can do "work" with a dull stone masons steel, but it had better be for something that will never be seen. I just do not understand this attempt to rationalise away the need to have sharp edges.

Sharpen before your edges are dull. That keeps them sharp longer and there will always be less sharpening work to do, and your work will be easier to get better.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I need to change my opinion.
I got a job = making replacement spokes for the wheels of some fancy buggy which is pulled by a pair of Tennessee Walkers (?), black horses, to me.
I have 3 spokeshaves, one at 25 degrees and two at 28 degrees bevel.
The wood was supplied, I'm satisfied that it is in the red oak (Quercus rubra) group*.
A spokeshave done with 1500 grit lasts 10X longer than one done at 600 grit.
The sense that I get is that the finer edge at 1500 takes less pressure in the cut than a slightly blunter, coarser edge at 600. Skewed most of the time, the curls were very consistent. The 600 blade made some tear-out that was easily repaired with the 1500 blade. . . .so the 600 blade got tuned up and both seem to act the same.
* Q. rubra has open vessels (aka pores) which run the length of the tree. So, with one end of the stick in a bucket of water, you can blow into the other end of a 2m piece and make bubbles. Q. alba, the white oaks, have vessels occulded with tyloses so waterproof for whiskey, port & wine barrels.
I'm quite surprised at the endurance of the 1500 over the 600 edges.

Originally Posted by Robson Valley

I need to change my opinion.
I got a job = making replacement spokes for the wheels of some fancy buggy which is pulled by a pair of Tennessee Walkers (?), black horses, to me.
I have 3 spokeshaves, one at 25 degrees and two at 28 degrees bevel.
The wood was supplied, I'm satisfied that it is in the red oak (Quercus rubra) group*.
A spokeshave done with 1500 grit lasts 10X longer than one done at 600 grit.
The sense that I get is that the finer edge at 1500 takes less pressure in the cut than a slightly blunter, coarser edge at 600. Skewed most of the time, the curls were very consistent. The 600 blade made some tear-out that was easily repaired with the 1500 blade. . . .so the 600 blade got tuned up and both seem to act the same.
* Q. rubra has open vessels (aka pores) which run the length of the tree. So, with one end of the stick in a bucket of water, you can blow into the other end of a 2m piece and make bubbles. Q. alba, the white oaks, have vessels occulded with tyloses so waterproof for whiskey, port & wine barrels.
I'm quite surprised at the endurance of the 1500 over the 600 edges.

I found much the same - sharpened my (#4) plane blade to 1200 the other day and it's definitely keeping the edge longer, and like you, much less tear-out on end-grain. Previously I was only going to 600G with this iron. NG Rosewood. Gonna have to try 2000G next.

Well RV, I think that puts this question in the answered pile! Sounds good to me!

The Stanley #64 is a crap tool for $50 as a spokeshave, I didn't use it. It jams with shavings in 5 minutes and the edge crumples just as quickly. I wouldn't give it away even if someone asked.

I was using a pair of $14.49 Samona adjustable spokeshaves. More or less identical but one at 1500 and the other at 600. Maybe having a comparable pair of tools in my hands was an advantage. I kid you not = the Samona spoke shaves are a real treat to use. Most satisfactory. #1 was so good, I ordered the second one.

Gee RV ... there's a #64 fan club ... OldTools Archive -- thread with message 184869

Pmcgee there is also a Justian Beber fan club somewhere I'm sure!

Some people can get the Stanley spoke shaves to sing and others don't like them. It depends on so many factors really. I doubt any of us has one hand plane, one saw and one type of chisel to do everything. How could one spokeshave fit everyone's different needs? Add an axe, spoke shave, rasp file, low angle spoke shave etc. Maybe the people that don't like them expect too much from them? I have only seen them as a finishing tool.

Pmcgee, I was kidding about the Justian comment, I was just in the shops in Coffs and Justian is on everything kids buy. When I was a kid, all I wanted was to make tools, fix things and go camping. I don't get the fascination these kids have with people on TV.

I think I'm now old guys!

I'd be a #64 fan if I was not so discouraged with the performance. Paint on the sole and crappy factory edge. . . . well, I've bought worse = no big deal. The clogging/jamming with shavings (dental pick to clear that) and the crumpling edge, even at 25 degrees puts that tool on the shelf. It's junk.

At about 30 cm each, I've just finished approx 8m of spoon handles, from square or rectangular to round or octagons with the 2 Samona spokeshaves. I'm using locally logged and milled birch (Betula sp.). Beautiful, straight grained, easy wood to work.
Neither spokeshave needs a tuneup yet. 20-25cm curly shavings make a nice mess on the shop floor.

The puzzle is that I can't see any outstanding difference that cripples the #64.

Originally Posted by Robson Valley

I need to change my opinion.

Seems I might have to change mine too.

Thanks for this, it's useful to have an actually side-by-side comparison of the two edges on the same wood.