Thread: Best way to flatten waterstones?

Dengy, it is not necessarily the diamonds that wear (although they can certainly wear), but the binder that holds them to the plate. When this wears, the diamonds fall out. This is one of the reasons why some diamond plates are not suited for this use - their method of adhesion may be weaker than the waterstone grit.

As far as I am aware, the Atoma have a good reputation (but I have not used them). I have used DMT Extra Coarse, and a Shapton diamond flattening plate (not for use on stones below 1000 grit). I have used the Shapton for several years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It's ideal for the last two waterstones. A 300 is a bit coarse and would be better flattened on something cheap and coarse like 60-grit wet and dry with a heavy paper back. The coarser stones are the ones that do the most damage to the binder on the diamond stone.

Loose silicon carbide would also be fine on the 300-stone (and it's cheap - $10 or so for a KG of it). At the stone's coarseness, it would be no big deal if some fractured particles of silicon carbide were left in it (you wouldn't need to be dainty and try to clean off every little bit of loose grit).

Many years ago there was a Japanese gentleman in Seattle that sold Japanese woodworking tools and stones. He used a coarse/fine Carborundum stone as his first when edges required it. He said most were preconditioned with oils and not to use them for the next bit. His were not oiled so he showed me that by using the edge you could flatten the water stones without contaminating the water stone with coarser grit. It works well as any other method and since you would likely have one anyway is cheaper than buying a diamond stone. I believe that a new preconditioned stone could be cleaned with a few soaks in Acetone and perhaps a wash or two in hot soapy water if you can't find a non- conditioned stone.

Pete

Originally Posted by QC Inspector

Many years ago there was a Japanese gentleman in Seattle that sold Japanese woodworking tools and stones. He used a coarse/fine Carborundum stone as his first when edges required it. He said most were preconditioned with oils and not to use them for the next bit. His were not oiled so he showed me that by using the edge you could flatten the water stones without contaminating the water stone with coarser grit. It works well as any other method and since you would likely have one anyway is cheaper than buying a diamond stone. I believe that a new preconditioned stone could be cleaned with a few soaks in Acetone and perhaps a wash or two in hot soapy water if you can't find a non- conditioned stone.

Pete

If you couldn't clean out the basic stone, there are some coarse silicon carbide rub stones provided for tile work that might not be oil filled. they are square bricks and cheap.

I use an extra coarse DMT, but I would like to upgrade to a DMT Diaflat lapping stone. They're larger, ground to a flatter finish, and are a more coarse grit than any of the other diamond stones available from DMT. It's hard to imagine a better (although there are cheaper) product available on the market for flattening a waterstone.

Good luck,
Luke

I'm in the same position, but can't justify the DMT Diaflat until the extra coarse DMT no longer does the job. Since flattening stones is all it gets used for, that might be a while...

The only thing I have against the Atoma is that the plate is quite a bit smaller than most waterstones. Trying to flatten a large slightly dished object with a smaller flat object doesn't seem right to the engineer in me (stands back and waits for flurry of indignant posts from Atoma users...)

Originally Posted by Mr Brush

I'm in the same position, but can't justify the DMT Diaflat until the extra coarse DMT no longer does the job. Since flattening stones is all it gets used for, that might be a while...

The only thing I have against the Atoma is that the plate is quite a bit smaller than most waterstones. Trying to flatten a large slightly dished object with a smaller flat object doesn't seem right to the engineer in me (stands back and waits for flurry of indignant posts from Atoma users...)

Depending on what you're looking to flatten, you might find the dia flat to have too coarse of a mesh. I wouldn't want to use it on a good japanese natural stone, or a fine oilstone.

The atoma works fabulously. I've used it on 8x3 and some stones a little bit larger and it's excellent (I use a 400). I don't flatten any very coarse stones, but if I did, I wouldn't do it on a diamond hone, anyway.

I have contacted a few manufacturers about the best way to flatten waterstones, and two responses are given below:
Veritas: advise they use Atoma plates for flattening
DMT: Insist the DMT DuoSharp are not suitable for flattening waterstones, as the waterstones causes premature wear. They strongly recommend the DMT DiaFlat lapping plate. It is expensive though, at $380 from Carbatec

If I were selling something that expensive, I'd insist on it, too. The 400 atoma is about $75 US or maybe a little less from toolsfromjapan.com

I think the diaflat was about $185 here when I was trading stuff around with Stu at TFJ. I just wasn't that impressed by it. By the looks of it, it just looked like the electroplate was thicker (I could be wrong, of course).

My atoma still flattens waterstones like nothing, it's almost 10 years old.

Thanks for your support and sharing your experience, everyone. The clincher for me was D.W's Atoma #400 was still going after 10 years, so I have placed an order with Stu for a replacement for mine ($140 all up), but he requires a couple of weeks to respond and ship because of his teaching committments.

However, this time I will not use the Atoma on the 300 grit waterstone. Suspect that was the cause of the rapid wear of my Atoma, plus pressing too hard.

D.W out of interest, how do you flatten the 300 grit waterstone during a sharpening process? I like to have the waterstone in position for sharpening in a baking tray, then spray it with water and rub the Atoma over the stone, then spray the Atoma clean, ready for the next flattening. Quick and easy, all mess contained in the tray.

I am thinking of putting some adhesive backed 180 grit on a piece of 6mm plate glass 8"x 3" and using that on the 300 waterstone. Any comment of that idea? The edges would be ground, and it would be wide enough to take the 70mm rolls of adhesive backed paper available from the Sandpaper Man, our sponsor

DMT’s Dia-Flat Takes a Crazy Beating - Popular Woodworking Magazine

Chris Swarz, in an article in Popular Woodworking, did a rave review of the DMT Diaflat

Originally Posted by Dengue

DMT’s Dia-Flat Takes a Crazy Beating - Popular Woodworking Magazine

Chris Swarz, in an article in Popular Woodworking, did a rave review of the DMT Diaflat

I'm sure I've spent $10K for various stones over the years (I haven't kept all of them), so take this with a grain of salt, but I've never been that enthusiastic about Chris Schwarz's ability to spend other peoples' money without really ever getting good at anything. I'm not that great at anything, either, but I can make decent planes. I could get along with a tiny subsection of any of my stones and lever lack anything for woodworking, and the edge varies little (including in time spent getting the edge) with the most expensive to the cheapest. The diaflat just isn't something that I'd spend the money on unless I just didn't care about the money at all. Vintage carving tools of good quality are about $25 here. I'd just much rather have an atoma and 4 good carving tools, etc. Even the atoma isn't necessary.

Originally Posted by Dengue

Thanks for your support and sharing your experience, everyone. The clincher for me was D.W's Atoma #400 was still going after 10 years, so I have placed an order with Stu for a replacement for mine ($140 all up), but he requires a couple of weeks to respond and ship because of his teaching committments.

However, this time I will not use the Atoma on the 300 grit waterstone. Suspect that was the cause of the rapid wear of my Atoma, plus pressing too hard.

D.W out of interest, how do you flatten the 300 grit waterstone during a sharpening process? I like to have the waterstone in position for sharpening in a baking tray, then spray it with water and rub the Atoma over the stone, then spray the Atoma clean, ready for the next flattening. Quick and easy, all mess contained in the tray.

I am thinking of putting some adhesive backed 180 grit on a piece of 6mm plate glass 8"x 3" and using that on the 300 waterstone. Any comment of that idea? The edges would be ground, and it would be wide enough to take the 70mm rolls of adhesive backed paper available from the Sandpaper Man, our sponsor

To tell you the truth, I don't use a stone like that for back work where I'd need to flatten it. I use a medium crystolon for coarse bevel work (I have a novel set of english chisels that I maintain without a grinder, and will use the medium crystolon to do rough work on japanese tools). I have had a lot of coarse stones, but for back work, they are just out of their element, and here's why:
In order for them to be good back flatteners, they have to:
* continue to cut fast
* stay flat

Coarse stones have to shed particles to cut fast. they will get out of flat doing that. If they don't shed particles fast, they will load. the crystolon solves that for bevel work by being friable and using oil as the medium to keep swarf suspended and loose, but it's still not that great for back flattening work. Back flattening work is the territory of sandpaper and loose diamonds on steel (beware of using loose diamonds on the bevel of any laminated tools, though).

So I use the medium crystolon, the four coarse waterstones I've had are dormant in the bench, and my atoma is happier for it and the fact that the crystolon isn't perfectly flat doesn't matter. I have gotten to the point that if I need to do minor back work with it, I can do that, anyway. Heavy work to the back of something goes to norton 3x or mirka gold in grit around 80, it just works so much better and faster, and it stays flat as long as it is stuck down with something.

If you have the king 300 (i'm not aware of other good 300 stones), you may wish to start using it freehanded allowing the iron to overlap the edge, and exclude it from back flattening. You'll find that it's good for bevel work even when it's fairly far out of flat. If you're using a honing guide, that will be a little bit more difficult.

Originally Posted by Dengue

DMT’s Dia-Flat Takes a Crazy Beating - Popular Woodworking Magazine

Chris Swarz, in an article in Popular Woodworking, did a rave review of the DMT Diaflat

Yeah. And I bought one on the strength of that read. What a POS it turned out to be. Like the other two DMT plates I bought it was next to useless in no time.....flat. All it's good for now is stone flattening, 'cept I only have one waterstone now (a 10k Shapton for finishing after diamond paste honing). So if you only want it for stone flattening it might be ok, but not at the price (here or in the USA).

Atoma plates on the other hand are a great piece of kit and far more durable. I like being able to have two grits on the same substrate (for a slight cost saving but more for space saving).

I recently purchased some CBN plates which were cheap enough (6 grits on 3 plates, 60/100 150/240 & 300/600), but I'm concerned about their durability. Flattened a couple of chisel backs and there were shiny bits of grit in abundance on the benchtop. Chinese made, and they reek of the usual Chinese QC. Couple of dings in the sides which have bellied up to create a high point on the edge of the business surface which is no good at all. They certainly cut steel fast enough, but will they continue to do so.

I did expect some grit to be shed during the braking in, but the amount was somewhat surprising......

They were not advertised as Chinese manufacture, but they came wrapped in Chinese newsprint which was a slight giveaway (plus the extended turnaround time from ordering to supply).