Thread: Getting the best from King waterstones

Honestly? You want to know what I think?

You're trying too hard.

Here's what I want you to do.

Take a blade, get it prepared on the #1000, whatever it is you do just make sure that the #1000 is done.

Next, take the blade and put it directly onto the soaked (1-2 minutes) #6000. No nagura. Rub the blade on there with short strokes, trying to cover as much of the stone as possible without going too far. Leave the stone moist/wet, not dry. If the blade starts skipping, take some water off.

Once the edge is clean, STOP! No drying slurry, no compounds, no nagura, no BS. Just stop.


Use it.

Don't over think it, just get the edge looking like it's sharp and %$#$%^#^% STOP!

Try that, and see where it gets you. Please.

I'm becoming more and more sure that most folks who are striving to achieve a decent edge, have suitable devices to allow it but just can't manage are more often than not, trying too hard.

Good luck,

Stu.

Your set up sounds much like my set up and I have been getting improving results from mine with a few extra steps. I use 1200 and 8000 grit stones and then finish with the finest grade wet and dry paper stuck flat using diluted PVA glue onto an offcut of ceramic kitchen benchtop to polish the bevel and the burr off the back (This paper gets better as a polisher as it wears a bit through use and takes it from the dull metal off the 8000 stone through to a mirror shine on blades). With the wet and dry stuck down like that to a hard surface I can use my honing guides and just jump from the stones without adjusting the position. I will then hold the bevel freehand against powered, round, leather stropping wheel with green rouge to finish. Usually this will be pretty sharp. Certainly removes hairs from arm easily. I keep all the surfaces (except the leather wheel of course) very wet and never allow them to dry out. I don't bother with the nagura stone on the 8000 because if you are regularly flattening then you are always unclogging the stone anyway. The only times I have had trouble getting consitently good results was when I was not using the stropping wheel. The blades were sharp but not razor sharp, stropping on leather really gives it that keen edge. I suspect you are possibly making too much of a leap from 6000 to just stropping with green rouge and leaving a certain amount of roughness on the bevel that cannot quickly be removed by polishing with rouge. If you can get a hard flat surface to adhere some wet and dry paper to then you can make a very cheap but effective extra step to get really polished bevels before stropping the edge.

Can't say I'm a fan of the idea of WD paper after an 8000 stone. 8000 alone should just about be shaving sharp, seriously. Is there any wear bevels on the backs of your irons/chisels? I have found these appearing mainly on my LA block plane blade and unless they are removed I have found them to be a right pest, preventing me from getting a decent edge easily. The ruler trick is hit and miss during my experience with these wear bevels.

I use the exact same setup, although with an 800 stone instead of your 1000. I set up blade in honing guide (which is the cheap garden variety) then onto the 800 until I feel a wire edge. I keep my 800 continually soaked and just splash the surface if it gets a bit dry during use. Once wire edge is formed I put maybe 2ml of water on the 6000, then rub it in with my fingers to gently moisten the surface. I use the stone to take the wire edge off the back, then long strokes on the bevel until a shiny surface is looking at me, then I do three rounds of a few short strokes on the bevel and then swap to the back. With the blade still in the guide, I hone it on the green rouge; just like you would on a stone, but only moving the blade away from the edge - so it wont dig in. Then onto the back holding the blade on a slight angle run it down the side of the board and polish the back. Do this a couple times and a quick strop in the palm of the hand and I have a shaving sharp blade. Whole process takes less than five minutes, and blade remains in the honing guide the whole time.

My one fiftieth of a dollar. Cheerio.

So you're planing radiata end-grain. Always a good test.

What blade steel is it and what's the cutting angle? Are you planing straight or skewed? What plane?

Originally Posted by Durdge39

Can't say I'm a fan of the idea of WD paper after an 8000 stone. 8000 alone should just about be shaving sharp, seriously.

Yeah that's what I thought too. Maybe I got the stone number wrong (memory can be a bit faulty but it's at least a 6000+. I'l have to check now just to be sure I didn't make that number up.) but the bevels (or blade backs) still come off it with a dull appearance. The wet and dry wears very quickly with a little back flattening of old blades to give a very fine polishing cut that takes the bevel from slightly dull to mirror shiny which to me equals sharp. I bought the 8000 (I think) with the expectation that it would polish steel and maybe with a lighter touch it would but I found the worn wet n dry really gets to mirror polish. The stropping I can freehand briefly as I only need to just touch up the very edge.

Originally Posted by pampelmuse

The wet and dry wears very quickly with a little back flattening of old blades to give a very fine polishing cut that takes the bevel from slightly dull to mirror shiny which to me equals sharp.

Umm, no.

I've had mirror edges that were sharp, and not so sharp. I've had 'dull' edges that were actually dull, but also has dull appearing edges that were very, very sharp.

Appearance of mirror or not does not automatically mean the edge is sharp or not.

If you can manage it, try the edge without the sandpaper. You might be pleasantly surprised. Or not, but an edge done properly on an #8000 grit stone from nearly any stone maker should pass as 'sharp' for most woodworking purposes.

Stu.

(Who actually used to use scary sharp many, many moons ago...)

Yes, you can get a mirror finish with W&D but seen under magnification the edge is jagged. The mirror effect can arise when deep scratches are aligned and refract the light in the same way.

The only Scary Sharp approach I'd recommend is to use 3M Micro-finishing abrasive or 3M Imperial lapping film and on a very flat substrate if doing lapping. Eg. the WoodPecker honing plate system.

Well on reflection (pun intended) I seem to be able to get a good sharp edge without the W&D as tested with my block plane blade today. It DOES get to a shiny surface on the 8000 although not like a flawless mirror. Maybe it's just a bit too much of leap from 1200 to 8000 to eliminate the deeper scratches rapidly. Probably need a 4000 in there to require fewer number of srokes on the 8000.
I wouldn't expect W&D to be better than an 8000 when new but when evenly worn it does act as a good polishing surface. Of course that makes for an inexact approach to sharpening .

Thanks a lot for the help guys, it's those highly specific instructions that really help with something like this. The process of sharpening seems self-explanatory once you know how to do it - after all, you're just rubbing an edge back and forth on progressively finer abrasives - but I've learnt that there's a lot more to it than that.

I've tried out Stu's instructions. This means I soaked the stone for several minutes, instead of just standing a little water on the dry stone; took much shorter strokes; didn't use the nagura; and didn't use the honing paste on MDF.

The results are a little better. The stone feels softer and doesn't clog as quickly (of course, in retrospect, I suppose that's the obvious result of soaking it properly). The short strokes seem to make a difference, bringing up a polish much more quickly as the stone loads.

This brings up an edge that's quite good enough for almost any woodworking purpose, so I'm certainly not complaining. But, it's still not shaving sharp, and not really sharp enough to get the shoulder plane doing what it should on end grain. I've never actually seriously tried to use my smoothing plane for anything yet - I'm still not happy with the frog surfaces and flatness - but I imagine that a sharper blade would be nicer for that purpose too.

I also tried the Veritas green again (sorry Stu), using almost no pressure for ten strokes or so, with some improvement - but still not what I'm looking for. It's difficult to provide a comparison to explain what I am looking for, but this post of Derek's illustrates it nicely: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...mondpaste.html. Compare the top (unstropped) to the bottom (stropped) edge.

With all that said, I am not really expecting better results from the 6000. If I weren't trying to shave radiata endgrain, I can't imagine it being an issue.
I'm guessing that manufacturers haven't been making 8000, 10000 and 13000 stones just for giggles, so I'm wondering whether it might be worthwhile to investigate a finer grit, like this one: Sigma power ceramic stone #10000 : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan.

So to clarify my question: am I being unrealistic in my expectations of the equipment I own? Would a finer grit stone be of benefit?

Your mileage may vary, but I used to go from a 1000 stone to 4000/8000 (Norton).

A while ago I changed this 4000/8000 Norton to a couple of the Shapton M5 stones in 5000 and 12000 grit.

Suffice to say, I can tell the difference......

I added a #12000 to the #8000 ... didn't find the extra step worthwhile.

Ern - it really makes a difference on chisels !! Not such a big deal on planes - although they do cut better for a short while, I'm sure the edge is pretty quickly reduced to the same state no matter what final honing is used. It would be instructive for a lot of people to take a look at their 'perfect' cutting edge through even a cheap microscope after about 5 mins planing typical local timber......

Not so convenient if you're already doing the 4000 followed by 8000, but with the right stones you can still use two stages just with 5000/12000 instead. I've pretty much settled on Sigma 1000, followed by Shapton M5 in 5000 and 12000. The Sigma 120 'black beast' is reserved for re-bevelling.

That reminds me - I've got to dig out all the other waterstones I no longer use and put them up for sale on here. There's all sorts of stuff lurking in the depths of my stone pond which someone else might find useful....

Originally Posted by Mr Brush

That reminds me - I've got to dig out all the other waterstones I no longer use and put them up for sale on here. There's all sorts of stuff lurking in the depths of my stone pond which someone else might find useful....

Pm sent!