Thread: honing or waterstones

It really depends on a number of factors. for example, What are you sharpening? What is its purpose when it is sharp?

A bit more info might help the forum to help you.

Cheers

Doug

If you use a wetstone grinder and leather honing wheel you will have a shaving sharp edge. As Doug says, do you need it sharper than that?

There is a progression of grit sizes under any circumstances.

"Shaving sharp" is a concept for edges cutting wet proteins.
I do not believe that it is equivalent to "carving sharp" for carving edges.

Commonly, I rarely need to do any less than 1K water stone
followed by a 4K waterstone.

Honing compounds are all between 0.5 micron and 0.2 micron to be effective.
I cannot find an effective difference,
I don't give a sweet rat's patootie who made it and who doped it with a colored dye
to make it look pretty. I'm far too old to be impressed.
That said, the honing compounds are running maybe 30K to 50K but, nobody is counting.

If you are sharpening woodworking edges perhaps you might not notice the difference between a 2K grit edge and a honed edge at 40K.
What are you doing?
I do the absolute least amount of edge management to keep me carving.

Sorry guys I should have mentioned what it was I plan on sharpening , I guess it really aimed at plane blades and the odd chisel for setting hinges etc also getting a secondary bevel does it make a big difference or not ?
I'm just more intrigued about this part of wood working after watching a few episodes from rob cosman .. cheers Osage..

Originally Posted by Osage

Sorry guys I should have mentioned what it was I plan on sharpening , I guess it really aimed at plane blades and the odd chisel for setting hinges etc also getting a secondary bevel does it make a big difference or not ?
I'm just more intrigued about this part of wood working after watching a few episodes from rob cosman .. cheers Osage..

Osage, it seems to me you are trying to overlap (pun intended) different sharpening systems. Grinding and honing is a system in itself and would be quite ok for planes and chisels. Personally I prefer to use my water-stones for that. By using a guide I feel that I can keep better control over maintaining a consistent bevel thereby reducing the amount of metal removed each time the tool is sharpened resulting in a longer useful life for the tool. Others may prefer it the other way for substantially the same reason.

Then for turning tools, most of the time I sharpen them on the grinder and do not bother honing. I don't turn as much as I do other things and that seems to work well enough for me.

The best thing to do is to pick one method that suits you and stick with it and practice it till you become proficient at it. If for you it is grinding and honing then so be it.

I hope this helps

Cheers

Doug

Cheers for the info Doug the main reason for my question is firstly curiosity and second is I've heard alot of people say its bettet to have a hollow grind followed by a secondary bevel on the water stones,sorry if I'm being a pain the butt it's just something I'd like to hone (pun intended also ha ha) my skills at as I'm really starting to favour the accuracy u get with hand tools I will definitely take your advice and see which one I like most and I'm already favouring the water stones so which ones do u recommend I get, and do u need to re grind after several re sharpens on the water stones I guess what I'm trying to say is how many times can u touch up the second bevel before u need to start from scratch again . Cheers Osage. .

What to do and when do you have to do it?

Hold your edge up to a bright light. If it were "sharp," there should be nothing at all to reflect the light. However, if and when the edge gets crumpled, there are little flat spots which reflect the light. I call them "sparks."
I know that this sounds dreadfully subjective but I judge the size of the sparks and start at 600 or 800. Clean that off with 1500 and hone with chrome green on box card.
This is entirely adequate for 12 different crooked carving knives with a sweep, a bend, in the blade.

I do not comprehend the need for a secondary bevel other than to ensure that there is adequate steel behind the edge to support it in service. Consequently for planes and spokeshaves, I don't bother. I have pulled my spokeshaves more than a mile in birch (hardwood) and when they stop singing, they get 800 + honing.

Originally Posted by Osage

Cheers for the info Doug the main reason for my question is firstly curiosity and second is I've heard alot of people say its bettet to have a hollow grind followed by a secondary bevel on the water stones,sorry if I'm being a pain the butt it's just something I'd like to hone (pun intended also ha ha) my skills at as I'm really starting to favour the accuracy u get with hand tools I will definitely take your advice and see which one I like most and I'm already favouring the water stones so which ones do u recommend I get, and do u need to re grind after several re sharpens on the water stones I guess what I'm trying to say is how many times can u touch up the second bevel before u need to start from scratch again .

It does not really matter if the blade is hollow or flat ground. It is only the tip that cuts. hollow or flat is a side effect of the means you used to grind the shape in the first place. If hollow grinding is easiest for you then do that. You will need to regrind if the blade is damaged or nicked anything more than extremely superficial. You might be surprised how long it takes to polish out an almost microscopic nick on a water-stone. You also need to regrind after you have resharpened the tool on the water stones several times. This is because each time you sharpen just on the water stones your secondary bevel becomes longer and longer and takes more time and effort to reach the desired edge. Once you reach the point of diminishing returns it is better to regrind for a fresh start.

I use three different water stones. I generally start out using a 1200 to get things going before polishing it with a 6000. The other stone is a 800 grit which is very aggressive and is not generally used. I find it handy if i have to deal with a "problem child" that just needs that bit more abrasive attention.

Its hard to give a definite figure on how many times you can restore the bevel on the water stones before regrinding as it depends upon skill levels in both use of and sharpening the tool, but the less often you need to grind the longer the tool will last.

I use a sharpening guide so that I always grind to the same angle on the same blade. It saves time, effort and tool steel. I sharpen our kitchen knives freehand though on the water-stones. Here's your excuse for the expenditure if permission is required. The cook gets something out of it too .

If you are serious about wanting to learn to sharpen, get yourself a jewelers loupe. Look at the edge on your tools at different stages throughout the sharpening process and watch them improve until you can see two flat planes of metal intersecting at the point. I thought I was a good sharpener until I bought a loupe. After that I really learned a lot and it also shows you when you are finished, saving more time effort and tool steel.

Hope this helps

Doug

Cheers for all your help guys much appreciated just one more thing which brand of stone should I get and where is the best place to get them I'm based in Melbourne. .
cheers Osage. .

Originally Posted by Osage

Cheers for all your help guys much appreciated just one more thing which brand of stone should I get and where is the best place to get them I'm based in Melbourne. .
cheers Osage. .

I am in Melbourne too. I have bought all my stones at shows. Either the Timber and working with wood show in October or from a japanese tool seller who was at a show at a Melbourne Guild of Fine Woodworking open day.

They are all 'KING" brand.

Sorry if that isn't too helpful.

Something I forgot to mention before is that it makes it a lot easier to use the stones if you have a stone pond. Mine is a Veritas brand from Carbatec. they also have the veritas honing guides I use.

Cheers doug I was planning on waiting for the woodworking show but I don't think I can wait that long and it's hard to find the time to get over to carbatec as I'm on the other side of the bridge also how long do the stones need to soak in the pond before using them are the stones from carbatec any good ?

Cheers doug I was planning on waiting for the woodworking show but I don't think I can wait that long and it's hard to find the time to get over to carbatec as I'm on the other side of the bridge also how long do the stones need to soak in the pond before using them are the stones from carbatec any good ?also I have seen people just spray the stone with a spray bottle to build up a slurry what's your opinion on this .cheers Osage. .

Originally Posted by Osage

Cheers doug I was planning on waiting for the woodworking show but I don't think I can wait that long and it's hard to find the time to get over to carbatec as I'm on the other side of the bridge also how long do the stones need to soak in the pond before using them are the stones from carbatec any good ?

I haven't bought any stones from Carbatec. They might have them. I don't know. I bought the stone pond and honing guides from Carbatec. Once the stones are wet, keep them wet in the pond. I have used them after soaking for only 15 minutes but longer would probably be better.

You can pay a lot more for water stones than the KING ones I use but they do alright for me. You just have to look after them and dress them after every few uses.

Cheers

Doug

Thanks for all the info much appreciated guys cheers osage. .