Thread: Japanese Waterstones - What Grit?

Hi Gerard

I'm sure you'll get plenty of replies to this question, so let me start it off.

You really need to go to a higher grit than 1200 to get a decent edge on a blade.

I now use the Shaptons stones, but I've also used the King 6000 and 1200 in the past. They all do their job well.

I go through the range of grits, finishing with the 8000 for normal hand planes (I use only Japanese hand planes except for the Veritas LA block - A2 blade). For chisels, I finish with my 5000 stone - no need to go any higher. I also have a 12000 Shaptons, and use this only on my finishing plane - it's an overkill, and unnecessary, to use this for the normal non-finishing planes.

This is generally how I use my stones. Others will probably have different views, but this works for me. Definitely, though, you need a higher grit stone than the 800/1200 combination you currently have.

Des

These days I use Shaptons as well....the M5 range from Stu are good value for finishing stones that won't be worn down too quickly. I come off an extra fine diamond plate or 1000 ceramic (Sigma) for the primary bevel, then for the microbevel to 5000 Shapton M5, and finally to 12000 Shapton M5 where justified (e.g. smoothing plane)

As Des points out, there isn't much point in sharpening a roughing plane or chisels beyond about 5000/6000 - take a look at the edge of a chisel using a pocket magnifier after using it for 10 minutes, and see what happened to that perfect edge you just put on it.....

If you want "one stone to rule them all", before I got Shaptons I used a Norton combination 4000/8000 waterstone that gave pretty good results. It requires more frequent flattening than ceramic stones like the Shaptons, but will still get you where you need to be.

Hi Guys
Don't want to hijack this thread....but have been thinking about new fine grit stones and

have had a look at the various threads and differing recommendations.

I currently use the ubiquitous extra fine diamond stone for the bevel and then go onto a

stone I picked up at a WWW show some years back. The stone is a Green Marl, from

memory, and was being sold by HNT Gordon. I use this for the secondary microbevel and

can obtain a mirror finish with some effort. My question is...does anyone

prefer/recommend the Shaptons over my stone or is there anyone who actualy uses the

natural Green Marl?

cheers

John M

I went to the Carbatec sale this year, and on the advice of Jan Schilling ? there I bought the King 1200 and 6000 waterstones and a Veritas honing guide. Well, it was a sale and I haven't had any luck using my son's Tormek Supergrind water cooled wheel ( another story ).

I have spent all weekend sharpening a couple of plane blades and paring chisels, first time ever using waterstones. I decided to adopt the standard bevels of 25 deg for the plane and 20 deg for the paring chisel.

What a messy job! Wet brown clay all over the place.

After what seemed hours on the 1200 stone, I found that I really needed a 300 grit stone to change the bevel. The 1200 stone is only good for sharpening to an existing bevel.

One interesting bit - after sharpening the paring chisel to the required bevel with the 1200 stone, I then switched to the 6000 stone for honing, using the same honing guide, without changing anything. The honing angle on the 1200 stone was quite different to the one done on the 1200 stone.

Perhaps I should have flattened both stones before using

Hope this helps

JillB - whatever you do, DON'T buy a coarse waterstone for changing bevel angles. I made this mistake years ago, and bought a Norton 220 grit to do the job. Complete waste of time and money; these things are so soft they literally disappear before your eyes. Impossible to keep flat, as they dish within a few strokes of a blade.

When it comes to bulk material removal, I've either done this on a grinder with white alox wheel (and appropriate guide to keep things straight), or on an extra coarse diamond plate. To be honest, with the harder steels, even the diamond plate struggles if you are taking a lot of metal off.

Since I now have some M2 steel blades (even harder than A2), I've ordered a coarse #120 grit ceramic stone from Stu for bevel forming. The ceramic stones are very aggressive, resist dishing quite well, but have specific requirements when it comes to keeping them flat. There is another thread somewhere about this.

Many thanks for this advice, Mr B, you have just saved me wasting $50. First I knew that Stu was involved in waterstones etc, so will chase that up on this forum

Just tell Stu what you are trying to sharpen - I'm sure he'll come up with a suitable recommendation.

There are some pretty fancy and aggressive ceramic stones out there these days, and some of the less well known brands (i.e. anything other than Shapton....) are very reasonably priced in the coarser grits.

Since getting A2 and M2 blades (although I still have a few O1) I have completely gone over to ceramic stones and diamond plates. My collection of Japanese waterstones are still lurking at the bottom of a container full of water, but haven't been used in over 12 months. One of these days I'll fish them out, flatten them all, let them dry out, and just put up the whole lot for sale on here.

I use a coarse waterstone (#120 Shapton) for bulk metal removal; or would you call this a ceramic stone Mr B? Anyway, it works a treat.

Gerard, I can recommend the Sigma Power #8000 for your next stone up. Easy to live with; works for blade back and bevel polishing; also knife sharpening.

But look at Stu's posts in this sub-forum; he's been doing some testing with interesting results. He also sells stones etc out of Japan and provides good advice.

Huh, spoke too soon!

Just today found a limitation with the Sigma Power #8000 ... with hard high carbon steel (OK, just one example) in both lapping and bevel polishing mode it clogged quickly.

Well, there's been a lot of other stuff passed over it so I'm not out of love for it yet ;-}

Ern, little circles and better water management.

I actually find it's most prevalent in blades that present a large area of hard steel to the stone. Presenting a smaller area of hard steel, as found in Japanese planes and chisels tends to clog less, if at all. Knives don't do it, unless you are polishing the sides up.

I usually break the clog by bringing water/slurry to the clog and rubbing in a different direction helps, as well as using an action that keeps bringing slurry to where most of the work is taking place. While you might need to work a softer stone to keep it flat, these hard stones still need to be worked over as much surface as they have to help prevent clogging.

It's not an ideal situation of course, but I'm aware of it and when I'm done with a bunch of other stuff I have on my plate right now (sheet of paper in front of me is mind blowing) I'll start talks with Sigma to see if we can't get a stone made specifically for Western type blades with lots of hard steel in contact with the stone.

Probably a simple case of introducing some porosity to the stone while still keeping it very hard.

Interesting point is that the 'conventional' versions of these stones clog far less than the ceramic versions. I'm talking about the Sigma #6000 and #8000/10000 here. Because they are a smidge softer, the affected area is usually worn away faster than a proper, party crashing clog can occur.

What's even more interesting is that the Sigma #6000 ceramic clogs less, cuts as fast and stays flatter than a Shapton Pro #5000. Again, it's not a perfect stone, but that will be addressed as soon as I can get to it.

While we are on the subject of middle grit stones, you might have heard of the Suehiro Rika. It's supposedly a #5000 stone, and it is clog proof. Just won't do it, and that's because it's porous and very friable/muddy. It won't stay flat, but it's still a lovely stone.

What I wouldn't give to be able to do this full time. I might actually be able to find enough hours in a day to get everything done...

Now if you will excuse me, I need to get back to planning world domination. At least when it comes to planes that is.

Yes, this blade back had a contact area of about 65mm x 25mm against the stone which is the most I've tried to work on this stone.

The bevel on the other hand ...

Will try your suggestions; thanks Stu.

Yes, pls do get back to world domination!

To add ...

All your posts make me think Stu, so I've decided to label those moments as Stu-ing

So with some more Stu-ing ....

The lapping preceded the bevel polishing, and yes, I can vary the water and the movement.

After that the stone was flattened/deglazed with a coarse diamond stone.

The real puzzle was with the bevel polishing. The blade was 65mm wide, 2ndary bevel not too long, and in a jig, so not a lot of wiggle room. The glazing happened quickly at two stripes down the stone. And it was hard work taking it off with the diamond stone.

So I'm thinking next time I might make some paste first with the diamond stone.

And also considering splitting the wood stand off so as to get more stroke miles without interruption.

To prevent glazing with waterstones in general, use more water. To prevent glazing with ceramic waterstones, such as Shaptons, add a little softsoap to the water.

I disagree with the posts that state that there is "no need to go beyond 5000 grit" for chisels. The implication is that one there is a specific grit for a specific task. Nonsense. All work goes better - more easily and more safely - with the best edge you can achieve. Further, the finer the edge - that is the smoother you can make it - the smaller the serrations at the edge, and the stronger the edge. The edge should last longer as a result.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I find when notching old hardwood framing for a noggin or a brace, there's no point in refining the edge of a firmer that much. The edge bends and sometimes chips even with old quality chisels.

OK, this is hacking, not fine cabinet work.

Thanks for the softsoap tip Derek. Won't affect the bond?