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  1. #1
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    Default State of play for Tormek / CBN wheels

    Just a quick post to run my thoughts on an impending purchase past the forum.

    My situation is that I have a hand-lapping / sharpening / honing system with a series of diamond plates that I am very happy with. I much prefer to refine/hone freehand particularly because my "shop" area is about 2/3 of a car space, so any grinder situation is either lugging something out from a cupboard to attach to the bench, or having a setup in a spare room.

    Where I have gotten "stuck" is initial refinements of bevels on old plane irons and a feeling of discomfort about lapping too much on plates, for fear of exaggerating or correcting errors. I also want to do a few things with edges such as make a scrub plane with a spare Stanley 78. It seems I do need a grinding machine and want a hollow grind for ease of freehand sharpening/honing.

    I did buy an extra-extra-coarse DMT plate thinking that just a little effort might get me by without too much equipment but even after 5 minutes on that plane one doesn't make much progress and I am worried that even if I make jigs etc I am always going to be doing things the hard way not the smart way. I'm also cautious about wearing out the brass wheel on the Veritas honing jig by really bearing down hard for lengthy sessions.

    After having read widely, a slow-speed bench grinder with a 1HP motor, plus a CBN wheel, and an angle guide system such as the Tormek BGM-100, seems the way to go.

    But doing a bit of research I have wondered whether buying a Tormek 4, with a view to upgrading with a CBN wheel in the future may be the way to go for me. Despite the significant expense over a slow bench grinder (which seem to go for $299 on almost every model at every shop).

    My thinking is:

    1. Having the stone wheel as an option might be a nice option to have, even if not thinking of using it long term or for sharpening per se, which I intend to do on the stones. Particularly with narrow blades or ones where I am only trying to add a hollow to the factory / inherited edge for ease of freehand sharpening/honing. I am a strong believer from even limited experience that slight differences in angles really does not matter. I am thoroughly uninterested in re-grinding a blade from 27 degrees to 25 "just because".

    2. While I've heard complaints that water can be messy, throwing a towel down doesn't seem to be a bad option to deal with it for occasional use (again, thinking this is not for general sharpening but repairing/correcting blades). If used with a CBN wheel at least the water tray is an available option for collecting fines/dust, and water can be cleaned up easily in a spare room setup with a hardwood floor - dust not so much. It doesn't seem possible/practical to add a water tray to a grinder setup.

    3. Even if I go the route of a CBN wheel, a nice built-in feature of the Tormek 4 regardless of the wheel in a small space is the universal support for the Tormek jigs built in. Without it, one would be forced to buy or build a similar support for the jigs. If the setup has to be moved around / chucked in a cupboard, without the luxury of a dedicated sharpening station, a big solid base with the grinder and BGM-100 bolted on is additional mass and size.

    Any thoughts on whether any of this is misdirected, or thoughts generally?

    Chris
    Last edited by Cgcc; 29th April 2020 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Typo

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  3. #2
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    Default

    I am a big fan of Tormek. I have a T7 with 4 additional wheels and I use Tormek for all my sharpening needs. But I would not recommend that Tormek be used as your main reprofiling tool. I would advise a half-speed grinder with the Tormek BG 100.
    Before I bought a half-speed grinder, I used Tormek with a 280g CBN wheel to do reshaping and felt that it was a bit too slow and I tended to apply too much pressure and resulted in the CBN wheel wearing out faster than it should. Currently, My sharpening process is as follows:
    • I do my initial re-shaping on the half-speed with a 200 Aluminium Oxide wheel. I only need to apply a light touch.
    • I then transfer my sharpening onto my Tormek T7, firstly through a 650g diamond wheel, then 1200g diamond wheel and finally 400g Japanese water-stone.

    So I'd advise you to go for the half-speed and invest the BGM-100 and some jigs depending on what you want to sharpen. For chisels and plane iron, a square-edge jig would be a good start. You will need to adjust the BGM-100 Univeral support bar to be parallel to the wheel. The best way to do that is with a chisel with a correctly grounded bevel and a black marker. You first colour the bevel with your marker and then insert the chisel into the jig and onto the usb. Press against the wheel and rotate the wheel slowly by hand, adjust the BG-100 until the mark is worn evenly. This will take some time, but it's well worth it. Once its done. you are set.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    May 1999
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    Grovedale, Victoria Australia
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    3,894

    Default

    If you want to use the diamond wheels on your tormek you need to buy the T8 as this is 250mm diameter, the T4 is 200mm diameter, Overall the T8 is a better buy
    Jim Carroll
    One Good Turn Deserves Another. CWS, Vicmarc, Robert Sorby, Woodcut, Tormek, Woodfast
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  5. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
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    Perth
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    10,810

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cgcc View Post
    Just a quick post to run my thoughts on an impending purchase past the forum.

    My situation is that I have a hand-lapping / sharpening / honing system with a series of diamond plates that I am very happy with. I much prefer to refine/hone freehand particularly because my "shop" area is about 2/3 of a car space, so any grinder situation is either lugging something out from a cupboard to attach to the bench, or having a setup in a spare room.

    Where I have gotten "stuck" is initial refinements of bevels on old plane irons and a feeling of discomfort about lapping too much on plates, for fear of exaggerating or correcting errors. I also want to do a few things with edges such as make a scrub plane with a spare Stanley 78. It seems I do need a grinding machine and want a hollow grind for ease of freehand sharpening/honing.

    I did buy an extra-extra-coarse DMT plate thinking that just a little effort might get me by without too much equipment but even after 5 minutes on that plane one doesn't make much progress and I am worried that even if I make jigs etc I am always going to be doing things the hard way not the smart way. I'm also cautious about wearing out the brass wheel on the Veritas honing jig by really bearing down hard for lengthy sessions.

    After having read widely, a slow-speed bench grinder with a 1HP motor, plus a CBN wheel, and an angle guide system such as the Tormek BGM-100, seems the way to go.

    But doing a bit of research I have wondered whether buying a Tormek 4, with a view to upgrading with a CBN wheel in the future may be the way to go for me. Despite the significant expense over a slow bench grinder (which seem to go for $299 on almost every model at every shop).

    My thinking is:

    1. Having the stone wheel as an option might be a nice option to have, even if not thinking of using it long term or for sharpening per se, which I intend to do on the stones. Particularly with narrow blades or ones where I am only trying to add a hollow to the factory / inherited edge for ease of freehand sharpening/honing. I am a strong believer from even limited experience that slight differences in angles really does not matter. I am thoroughly uninterested in re-grinding a blade from 27 degrees to 25 "just because".

    2. While I've heard complaints that water can be messy, throwing a towel down doesn't seem to be a bad option to deal with it for occasional use (again, thinking this is not for general sharpening but repairing/correcting blades). If used with a CBN wheel at least the water tray is an available option for collecting fines/dust, and water can be cleaned up easily in a spare room setup with a hardwood floor - dust not so much. It doesn't seem possible/practical to add a water tray to a grinder setup.

    3. Even if I go the route of a CBN wheel, a nice built-in feature of the Tormek 4 regardless of the wheel in a small space is the universal support for the Tormek jigs built in. Without it, one would be forced to buy or build a similar support for the jigs. If the setup has to be moved around / chucked in a cupboard, without the luxury of a dedicated sharpening station, a big solid base with the grinder and BGM-100 bolted on is additional mass and size.

    Any thoughts on whether any of this is misdirected, or thoughts generally?

    Chris
    Hi Chris

    I suspect that you are citing my 8" half-speed CBN bench grinder in your post. Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...ningSetUp.html

    It is relevant to note that the CBN wheels for a (dry) bench grinder (mine are 180 grit - used for most everything - and 80 grit for heavier grinding) essentially have replaced the Tormek ... With the addition of the BG-100 blade guide, this set up has made the Tormek irrelevant!

    The down side of the Tormek is that it is messy and incredibly slow. The reason why the Tormek was viable for so many years is that, until now, it wass the best way to hold down heat when grinding (and do not be fooled into thinking it is a "complete sharpening system" - only to those who want a miracle). Tormek appear to have read the writing on the wall by introducing diamond wheels.

    The fact is that the BGM-100 adds all the Tormek jigs and strategies to a much faster bench grinder. Even a half-speed with CBN is not foolproof in preventing excess heat, but a little care (light touch) and the pros far outnumber the cons.

    As I recall, I got my 180 grit from Jim, who was very helpful at the time.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  6. #5
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    Mobyturns is offline In An Instant Your Life Can Change Forever
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by justonething View Post
    I am a big fan of Tormek. I have a T7 with 4 additional wheels and I use Tormek for all my sharpening needs. But I would not recommend that Tormek be used as your main reprofiling tool. I would advise a half-speed grinder with the Tormek BG 100.
    Before I bought a half-speed grinder, I used Tormek with a 280g CBN wheel to do reshaping and felt that it was a bit too slow and I tended to apply too much pressure and resulted in the CBN wheel wearing out faster than it should. Currently, My sharpening process is as follows:
    • I do my initial re-shaping on the half-speed with a 200 Aluminium Oxide wheel. I only need to apply a light touch.
    • I then transfer my sharpening onto my Tormek T7, firstly through a 650g diamond wheel, then 1200g diamond wheel and finally 400g Japanese water-stone.

    So I'd advise you to go for the half-speed and invest the BGM-100 and some jigs depending on what you want to sharpen. For chisels and plane iron, a square-edge jig would be a good start. You will need to adjust the BGM-100 Univeral support bar to be parallel to the wheel. The best way to do that is with a chisel with a correctly grounded bevel and a black marker. You first colour the bevel with your marker and then insert the chisel into the jig and onto the usb. Press against the wheel and rotate the wheel slowly by hand, adjust the BG-100 until the mark is worn evenly. This will take some time, but it's well worth it. Once its done. you are set.
    I don't have a half speed grinder, but do have a conventional 8" Abbott & Ashby grinder (purchased long before slow speed grinders were commonly available to the hobbyist) set up with the BG100 mount and a Tormek T7 with standard wheel & the necessary jigs for my woodturning and wood working hand and power tools. JOT's (post #2) comments in general above are pretty much on the money for me, and so is Derek's comment about a "complete sharpening system."

    I tend to use the Abbott & Ashby to shape new or reprofile damaged woodturning gouges and to sharpen (on the "coast") tools that suffer incredible wear like spindle roughing gouges and bowl gouges used to roughout bowl blanks.

    The Tormek is used for the fine sharpening jobs, for ultra keen edges on skews and spindle gouges used in fine spindle turning, plane blades, hand chisels & the like. Then I maintain those edges on diamond honing plates until it becomes more than a few passes to restore the edge.

    I also use a Caravagi garden mulcher (3.5 or 4 hp Honda powered) in the garden. It uses a single heavy duty "planer blade" cutter that suffers very significant wear in each session on palm fronds. I sharpen that myself on the Abbott & Ashby. Attempting to reprofile a very hard cutter such as that is a very slow and tedious exercise on a Tormek.

    That's about as close we can come to "complete sharpening system." Horses for courses.

    If I was starting out now with an unlimited budget, but I only had space for one "grinder" it would be along the lines of the VICMARC CBN Sharpening Station. I believe it offers better value and versatility against the Tormek + a "spark grinder" combo.

    For now, when the standard wheels wear out I may upgrade to CBN or Diamond wheels but on my current usage that may be several years away.
    Mobyturns

    In An Instant Your Life CanChange Forever

  7. #6
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    As much as I look at CBN wheels and the big 8” grinders with lust, I find it hard to justify the costs for planes and chisel edges. Let me explain a little.

    I basically use Rob Cosman’s method; hollow grind on a grinder, then 1000 diamond plate followed by a 12,000 stone. Now for the amount I use my edged hand tools, which would be at least a several hours a week as a hobbiest, it would be remarkable if a tool saw the grinder every couple of months. It takes a LOT of sharpening before the hollow grind is exhausted. So when I do have to grind, I just take it slowly on my low cost 6” grinder with the old school grey wheels, and a cup of water for cooling. Yes it takes longer, but it’s so seldom.

    Now if you’re talking about turning tools, as I understand it, that’s a whole different ball game.

    I would be interested In hearing from those who have been in the game for a long time, just how often they need to take a tool back to the grinder, and would money be best spent elsewhere than a fancy grinding system at this stage.

  8. #7
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    Thanks Derek

    Yes my reading included your page (with thanks). But also a number of Youtube videos on CBN wheels which coincidentally dealt with the grinder setup. I was already there in terms of not using it to achieve edge-sharpening.

    I did end up plunging on the T4 last weekend with the SE-77 square edge jig and truing tool. There was just too many jobs bugging me, lined up, and I wanted to add a hollow to so many blades. I also dropped my favourite chisel and feel guilty every time I see it's nicked edge. I figured the SE-77 jig will at least will remain useful and the machine should hold resale value.

    In light with the advice above I think I will move to a slow-speed bench grinder in due course, but it will be one kept in a cupboard on a mounting plate and bought out to be clamped onto the bench. I just do not have a space budget for a permanent setup of that size in my work area, and it does seem that lugging it around will turn tinkering into a chore.

    What I did do is set up a little sharpening station with the T4 as depicted, in my study which is a short walk from my "shop", together with a cheap chest of drawers off gumtree that I won't be bothered with if it gets damaged etc. There is a kitchenette and bathroom just outside the room so I just keep an old towel nearby and mop up and water access and cleanup is easy. Because it's a somewhat "nice" room (other than the sharpening station) it is good not to have any dust.

    So I am popping out to sharpen, and just honing with green crayon on a piece of hardwood in the "shop". I am finding that mentally I find it more pleasant to walk to a different room rather than drag everything one needs out from a shelf or drawer and plonk it onto the bench, then move it away again.

    The usual paraphernalia being able to be kept out and to hand is nice, as it means no rummaging (plates, veritas honing guide, lamp with magnifying lens, little engineer's square for checking squares on edges and seating jigs, sharpie and clean-up stuff). Having a few drawers to put bits and pieces and jigs is very nice as it also lets one put excess stuff away to keep clutter down and make it a peaceful and tidy setup.

    So far so good - but I can already see what people mean about the slowness... still for a newbie it is forgiving and seems good for the interim-phase work of adding a hollow, correcting squareness, seems okay for repairing and re-profiling small tools like narrow chisels, and small-scale repairs and the like. I have also been finding how quiet it is very nice as it lets me achieve something at nighttime and I can play an online seminar or lecture as I go that doesn't require too much concentration (I am fairly well into a profession but still need to sit through mandatory annual seminars and lectures).

    IMG_20200508_062849_MP.jpg

  9. #8
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    Thanks Mobyturns

    I looked into the Vicmarc system. I could not find much information or reviews about it. Ultimately I went with the Tormek jigs because there seemed to be ample support, training videos and it being so well established in the market seemed to reasonably guarantee future availability of parts and upgrades.

    Would be interested to hear more about that system.

  10. #9
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    Thanks Jim

    I posted below about ultimately splurging on the T4... but already feeling a twinge of regret about not going with the T8 as the size is more manageable than I had perhaps feared in practice and all the things you've mentioned are right. Plus the inclusions with the T8 mean the price difference is not that much.

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